Episode 47: Love Languages are Bullsh**, Episode with Michael Vaughn
Crystal Britt 0:00
Hey there and welcome to Time to Lean, the podcast where you air your dirty laundry and we help you clean up your shit. I'm Crystal Britt
Laura Danger 0:06
and I'm Laura Danger. Think of us as your household secret weapon, taking your questions and voicemails to navigate the wild world of gender norms and household dynamics.
Crystal Britt 0:17
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Laura Danger 0:22
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Crystal Britt 0:25
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Laura Danger 0:27
This is Time to Lean.
Crystal Britt 0:28
Welcome back, everybody to time to lien we're super excited to bring you this episode today. As you can see, this is not Laura. Laura is not with me today. We have we brought Michael Vaughn-World Shaker back, because his episode with us was the most shared episode of the whole year, which was amazing. And we really enjoyed recording with him. So yeah, it was super cool. So we were really excited to bring him back. And, Michael, I want you to introduce the topic that you and I are going to talk about today that we've prepped, because it is it's yeah, it's a passion of mine to talk about, but you brought it to us and was like, and we're like, we got to talk about this.
Michael Vaughn 1:52
I think the summary that we had going in our shared notes is "Love languages are bullshit." And this came out of this actually started for me like back in 2020. Around Christmas 2020, I posted a video that I was still pretty new to Tiktok; I blew up a little bit. And it was me venting about an over gifter in my life and where it's gonna drop all kinds of things that are controversial. Some people are like, "What are you talking about??"
Crystal Britt 2:20
For sure.
Michael Vaughn 2:21
But the idea is you just get dumped on with a bunch of gifts that may not have much meaning or value. It's really just for the person who's giving the gifts to feel better. And I was talking about that in a video and one of the most common criticisms that I was getting back from people was like, "Oh, well, maybe this is that person's love language." And that's when I started to analyze love languages as a whole. Because in a previous relationship, I had read the book, we had tried to use love languages, it was not a very successful thing. And I was taking a closer look after the whole over gifting video. And people were like, "oh, you know, an over gifter: their love language is just gift giving. So like you should accommodate that."
I did a little bit,
Crystal Britt 3:06
Which is also an interesting perspective.
Michael Vaughn 3:07
Yes, isn't it isn't the idea behind love languages, if you're following that is that like you love people the way they want to be loved. But I was thinking a little bit more into this. And I was I was realizing like this is basically relationship astrology, there's no scientific research behind this that says that love languages actually work or maybe even exist. And it's fascinating because people have read these books, like millions of copies sold. A lot people really strongly believe in this as a philosophy within their own relationships. But when you stress test these ideas and theories, they just don't stand up. And there are also a lot of problems behind the person who came up with them. So that was, I think, a shared passion. Is that these words? Surely not that awesome. They are, by and large bullshit.
Crystal Britt 3:59
For sure. And I think it's really important to point out that, like, there is nothing wrong with utilizing love languages, like as a tool, right? Just like I take, you know, any other book that teaches me, you know, boundaries or how to notice and be attentive to my partner like, those are great. It's the problem is when we put it up as like, this is the one thing that you need to understand like that, because that in by and large, when it becomes problematic is what astrology does, right? It's like when we get into that of like, No, this is the I mean, to be fair, like when you get into religious areas, right? This is the one right way to do something. That's where it becomes really problematic because then people who don't do it, there's something wrong with them or like they're a little bit dumber than you and don't understand. Right? So while we're saying Love Languages is bullshit, and we fully I fully adhere to that as well. It is the thing of like, if it's a tool that works for you don't break it like that's fine. But be aware of your blind spots? Because as Michael alluded to, I want to start with, I want to start with the author.
Michael Vaughn 5:11
I think that's probably a good spot. Yeah.
Crystal Britt 5:13
Oh my god. So as, as someone myself, who I don't know if people know what goes into, like getting a license of any kind, but it's always advanced schooling, it's a higher education, it's always clinical hours of some kind that it has to be supervised, you have to turn in a lot of it's a lot of paperwork, it's it's a lot of things that go into doing that. So tell us a little bit about Gary Chapman.
Michael Vaughn 5:43
This was one of the first things that I noticed when I really started to dig into love languages. And like you said, there's nothing wrong with having a shared language with you and your partner to help figure out how you might communicate certain ideas. But when we dig into this, it is important to start with the author and figure out what is their mindset? What is their philosophy on life? And how might that impact influence their writings. And what you'll hear people talk about when they talk about supporting or love languages in terms of support is, they will talk about the author, Dr. Gary Chapman. And we've noticed that always heroes, they always let it kind of hang there. Like it's Dr. Gary Chapman. They never really say what the doctorate is in his Yes, bachelor's and master's, we're both in anthropology, which could be helpful for understanding relationships as an example. But when you hear of someone writing a book about relationships, specifically, healthy marriages, or partnerships, you would think that doctor implies counselor, therapist, psychology,
Crystal Britt 6:47
PsyD, PhD in psychology,
Michael Vaughn 6:50
family counselors, someone who's gone through formal academic medical training, to be able to deliver that who has gone through some of the steps that you mentioned, like clinical hours, where you're being observed where it's very tightly regulated, make sure that you are doing as little harm as possible and doing as much good as possible. And instead, the best I can find is, we do know where his PhD came from it was from an accredited biblical school. But the best guests that I've seen so far is that the degree is in adult education. So the science of teaching and learning when it comes to adults, but within a biblical context, and not licensed therapists, not a counselor, not a psychologist or somebody in any way. So when they let Dr. Gary Chapman kind of hang there, it's implying credentials that aren't present. And that's certainly something right. I'm not a fan of.
Crystal Britt 7:51
Yeah, and I think too, it's like, really, I mean, clearly, like Laura and I talk a lot on the podcast about like, white supremacy, and patriarchy, and misogyny and racism, all of those things, that clearly, we're not here about like to, to hold one like academic standing above another. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I'm a relationship coach, this is what I do. I don't have any formal training, but I do have 20 years of experience." That's clear. That's kind, that's transparent. And people know what they're signing up for and what they're getting into, to your point when they say Dr. Gary Chapman, and then present him. I mean, one of the you were so gracious to assemble this like very thorough document, Michael. So thank you for all of the links in the press. This was so nice. So nice, for sure. Oh, yeah. And we'll put them in the show notes for sure. But for example, like smart marriage conferences is one thing that he has been a speaker in and collected money from teaching couples, how a growing marriage and The Five Love Languages, right was what he did at this conference. And his bio says, Dr. Gary Chapman is a world renowned marriage therapist, speaker and author. He is not a therapist. And when we get into these areas of especially like, because his school was accredited, in Biblical Studies, like that was kind of when you and I were talking, I was kind of trying to parse out like, okay, is his degree at least in biblical counseling, or pastoral counseling, which is a whole other area that I can get into? And it's not and so to present yourself as someone who has, like you said, training to do no harm training to understand I mean, anthropology is great, like that's a very valid field of study. But especially at a bachelor's level does not encompass how to prevent doing more harm than good working one on one with couples or teaching them how to understand each other better. That's highly problematic.
Michael Vaughn 9:47
Yeah, that's that's definitely the first thing right there is the credentials do seem to be misrepresented and it does extend out even further from there. So his primary experience counseling couples, comes within a In the church context, he is a pastor. His counseling has been done through his church. We don't know the demographics of his church offhand. But I will say like, it's someone who comes to it from a Christian background, he is only working with Christians within his church. And what that means is if you look at licensed counselors, therapists, psychologists, as an example, they work with a broad array and spectrum of people for a wide variety of backgrounds for a wide variety of contexts. And coming at this from a very narrow perspective, like Gary Chapman is, means that he is pulling these lessons learned from a very select group of people. And from a very small group of relationship types. And that Oh, I believe needs to be a lens that's put over top of the five love languages and how he came up with those ideas. Because of that, Oracle context and it, I will dig out a little bit further. But there are also some things that he said along the way that are in the book there in resources that support the book that I think also are informative about the mindset that he might bring to love languages as well. Yeah. So
Crystal Britt 11:14
Yes, which is very interesting, because there are a couple of love languages in particular that I want to dive into. Along that same line. Before, I probably should have jumped into this before we started talking about Gary Chapman. But could you just give like a brief overview for people who don't know what love languages are? Or what the fuck we're talking about? Could you kind of give a brief overview of what love languages are? Yep.
Michael Vaughn 11:39
So this was something that Gary Chapman came up with in the early 90s. His argument is that all of love in romantic relationships is expressed through one of five ways. These are the love languages that he proposed exists. So the first would be words of affirmation. There is quality time with your partner, there is receiving gifts, there is acts of service. And I know that we're going to loop back to this one, there is also physical touch. And so those are the five love languages that he is argued exist, there are. And we'll get into more of the critical aspects here in a little bit after we get past like talking about the author. But it is important to note that literally at the beginning of this book, he says, and I quote, "Your emotional love language, and the language of your spouse may be as different as Chinese from English, no matter how hard you try to express love in English, if your spouse understands only Chinese, you will never understand how to love each other." So his underlying argument is that love only exists within these five ways. And that if your partner wants to receive love in one way, and you give love in another, you two will functionally not be successful long term like that is the underlying idea behind these five love languages. And it gets a little bit more insidious after that. Because you know, in the book, people are encouraged to modify themselves, to better love their partners, but only certain people are encouraged to change themselves for the benefit of others. Quite a few examples of that within the book, which is one of my primary criticisms with the philosophy of it.
Crystal Britt 13:22
Which is so interesting, and it's really interesting that you'd- like to point out at the very beginning, he's upfront about, "Hey, if you guys don't,"- I mean, sorry. It's activating all of the things in me. With me--with no clinical background, to say, "These are the five ways that you can best understand your partner. And if you don't speak the same love language, and you don't read this book, and you don't follow what this book says, in order to understand your partner, you will never have a functional relationship." is a bold claim. That's like a-that's clickbait. Like, it's that is so frustrating.
Michael Vaughn 14:09
Because the underlying argument behind Love Languages is that like, if you want your relationship to last, you have to match up with those love languages. I know that we'll have some criticisms of those in particular going forward. But to loop back to Gary Chapman, aside from the credentials being misrepresented as something that they're not whether it's intentional or not. It is also important to note again, the Christian context for which he pulls his lessons and presents them as pun intended gospel truth is a very narrow lens, but it also informs a lot of the book is written and one of the more egregious example where love languages can be really toxic. Towards the end of the book, he literally made an entire chapter where he thought he proved something. Instead, it was one of the worst things that I've read in a while.
Crystal Britt 14:56
It's-which, which is like he did prove something, it just wasn't what he thought he proved
Michael Vaughn 15:00
Yeah, yeah, that's that's pretty much it. And it is also worth noting that the context that he brings to the idea of love languages is also informed by a layer of homophobia. There are multiple blog posts on his site where, essentially it's like, Dear Abby style things where they're like Dr. Chapman, what, what would you do here? And some of the questions were essentially like, "My child came out to me as gay. What am I supposed to do about this?" In response to one of those writing questions about like, how do you deal with learning your child this? Yeah, he wrote, this is direct quote, "Disappointment is a common emotion when a parent hears one of their children indicate that he or she is gay. Men and women are made for each other. It is God's design. Anything other than that is outside of that primary design of God." And we've heard this used a lot to weaponize Christianity against the LGBTQIA community. And this is just a further continuation of that. So when we talk about the five love languages and who they are for that group has become smaller. As we learn more and more about Gary Chapman's mindset with this. And again, he wrote the book in the early 90s. These comments were made by him in 2013. So he has been hearing that yeah, for a good while, just a year later, in a similar post, he wrote, "The initial reaction is that they the parents have failed their child in some critical way. The fact is that research has failed to discover the causes of homosexuality," (not true) "we simply don't know why some people have same sex attraction. So what's a Christian parent to do? The example of Jesus would lead us to spend more time with them, communicate with them and demonstrate love for them," Here's the kicker, "even though we do not approve of their lifestyle." So again, implying that homosexuality is a choice rather than a way that people are literally born. And that is, again, something that is going to be rooted within how those five languages were developed by him. And how he interprets their application not just in his book, but in other people's lives.
Crystal Britt 17:12
Yeah, absolutely. Especially within having that like layer of homophobia, having his- this is why it's really important. I mean, this is why literary criticism or what is the what is the buzz term? You would know better-
Michael Vaughn 17:27
Media literacy?
Crystal Britt 17:28
Thank you. Yes. This is why media literacy is so important, right? When my kids are when we're watching YouTube kids together when we're watching something together, I asked them like "Hey, how do you think this person like they just said this that was a pretty bold statement where do you think they got it from?" From a young age because of stuff like this. Where it's like this is not like him having- it's layer upon layer of isms: racism, sexism, you know, homophobia, having all of these things and then having a New York Times best seller book for decades-literally decades where you can go to Barnes and Noble if that book is in stock right now I don't have to ask right and then having
Michael Vaughn 18:12
like my love languages is five guys fries or something like that?
Crystal Britt 18:17
Yeah, it's it's part of like the it's part of the cultural vernacular now, right? Love Language-People generally know what that means. And so the way that it's which I like as a side note, having grown up in the evangelical church is part of the thing like it's supposed to be insidious. This is the we're doing it backwards. But this is what is supposed to happen. Right? You pick up the book, you really like it you like notice that there are some religious things. You think, oh, well, maybe I'll be open to going to church and then you got it. Right. It's that's the point of evangelicalism. But having this is so damaging, and needs to be more upfront of like, hey, love languages, from Chapman from the horse's mouth is not for it's for cis-het couples. This is not for, like, if you believe cis is even a term that's a real thing. You know what I mean, which I would assume he's, you know, he's one of the people who assumes it's a slur. So this is not, yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, okay. On the back of that, can we go into a little bit of the like, how it's rooted, like within misogyny, let's get into some of these love languages and the problematic stuff.
Michael Vaughn 19:25
Yeah. And before we dive any further, I do want to put just as a little note, because imagine that the folks who disagree with us at this point are probably very upset with us. And part of that from a media literacy perspective is we've talked about how this has its roots probably in Christianity as a religious practice. And that if that is also your religious practice, it may feel like we are criticizing you as a person because quite frankly, there's that tribalism. There's that point. Why are you picking on my team? Why are you criticizing my team right now? Or I found this language to be really helpful and communicating I need to like, where are you coming from with this. And again, this is not a criticism of you, whoever's listening to this, this is a criticism of these ideas, to encourage you to think a little bit more critically about them. And so I really want to separate the person from the idea here. We're talking about the ideas and not necessarily your personal ideas and faiths and things like that. But
Crystal Britt 20:21
Absolutely, and the way that they're presented and the transparency or lack of that they're being presented with Yeah, absolutely. That's a really, that's a great point.
Michael Vaughn 20:30
I think one of the more common examples that pops up when you talk about just the love languages themselves, are how they could potentially be maliciously applied. So in a relationship, like in a straight relationship, if you have a husband, who says, Well, my love language is physical touch. And so you know, I feel loved when you have sex with me. And you know, if you don't do that, then I'm not going to feel loved. And so that could move into a spot where it is less about loving your partner is more about coercing them into surrendering their body. And that could be especially problematic. It's sort of like all things in in moderation, right. Like, there's a difference between Yeah, I really wish you would hold my hand when we go for walks in the evening and spend some time together or wish you would sit close to me on the couch, to if you don't do this, I am going to feel like you don't care about me. And weaponizing that right to get something that you want in the short term. And that Yeah, absolutely. There's like an entire chapter where Gary Chapman seems to almost facilitate that in some of those relationships, which I found to be really especially egregious. This shows up a lot throughout the book. And an underlying theme that I noticed quite a bit is he is routinely asking the women that he works with to change themselves for the benefit of their partner. And what I mean by that is he will be talking about like, Oh, I was chatting with Anne or Jane or Jessica. And, you know, they said that their husband does this, this and this, and I told them that they need to change for their husbands. And now everything's better. Even sometimes, it was in really little ways, like in the chapter on physical touch. This is Chapter Eight of the book, where they break down like what that love led language allegedly means to share some stories and things like that. He includes a list of suggestions for how you can show this type of love language to your partner. And number six was initiate sex by giving your partner or giving your spouse a foot massage, continued to other parts of the body. And here's the part that stood out to me, as long as it brings pleasure to your spouse. So it is not about the person giving the love it is about the person receiving that physical approach. And it is like, again, sacrificing your own personal needs, wants desires for the benefit of the other person to relationship, and it was just a, I found it to be kind of an insidious suggestion. There were other things on the list that were a little bit more platonic. It was like you know, so a little bit closer together on the couch, like grab their hand when you're out for a walk or something like that. Once it comes to sexuality, then things start to get a bit more insidious when it comes to love languages in general. And the one thing that I'll add, before we do like a transition is I think you and I both follow Dr. Rachel Van- Rachel Vanderbilt on TikTok so yes, and her username is @rachelvanderbiltphd. I'm sure we can put it in the show notes. And
Crystal Britt 23:54
yeah, absolutely.
Michael Vaughn 23:55
So she has a full on doctorate with a focus on relationships and romantic relationships, and was doing an interview literally about love languages, and shared an observation of a conversation that she observed where a woman knows that in heterosexual relationships, almost all men seem to have a love language of physical touch. While almost all women seem to have a love language of acts of service. And for those two together, it creates a really kind of a, it's that that squinting eye emoji, right?
Crystal Britt 24:32
Bombastic side eye
Michael Vaughn 24:34
But to extend that they found that that was rarely true in lesbian relationships. I thought that that was a very interesting.
Crystal Britt 24:41
Weird, right? Yeah. Absolutely. And especially because like, we would put it out before when the narrow focus is on sis hat relationships, and you're like, Oh, that's interesting, because when we take that, you know, out of that context and put it in a different context But you're saying that this is not you're implying that this system is not for it doesn't actually work that way does it falls apart? That's super interesting. Especially when, like it reminds I mean, Laura and I have been talking about The Tragedy of Heterosexuality by Jane Ward the book for, like, at least three months because we talk about compulsory heterosexuality all of the time. Because in my practice, I sometimes when I'm working with clients, especially sis females, when they come in, and they're dissatisfied in the relationship, so one of the things that I, like over a long period of time will try and help them suss out is like, Hey, did you come to be straight? Because that is your orientation? Or did you come to realize you were straight because of compulsory heterosexuality? And is that is that attention somewhere? And if they're like, No, I'm straight. I don't touch it again. Right? This is not about coercion or diving or making problems whether or not but to your point, right? Like, when Dr. Vanderbilt talks about these relationships and taking it out of cis-het relationships and like all of a sudden, it's not applicable. Yeah, that's probably because compulsory, like a lot of this, I don't know, I would imagine at least some of the couples he's working with are in heterosexual relationships because of compulsory heterosexuality. And in the five love languages, metaphor, Mars, Women are from Venus, you know, context. We're just trying to get them to not hate each other. And so for a woman that means, you know, you need to have be having sex more with your husband, even when you're tired and don't feel like it. Yeah. And for a husband, it means Hey, could you be like pay attention to her emotional to let her talk about her feelings more? Just let her talk about her feelings more, which is not, you know? Yeah, exactly. pretend to care, just like act like you care. Um, that's so, so interesting. Um, go ahead. Sorry,
Michael Vaughn 26:49
it's a bit of an observation that you had when we were chatting about what a show or a video might look like around this topic. Because the observation that you had had was that it creates this misconception that that love is not an ongoing process, but instead is a series of steps with a beginning, middle and end. Do you remember that? Yeah.
Crystal Britt 27:12
Yeah, absolutely. It's
Michael Vaughn 27:13
a real observation on your part.
Crystal Britt 27:17
Yeah, it's interesting, because I feel like especially when I work with couples, I feel like sometimes they're because of capitalism and, like, competitiveness, that and the hierarchy that's like, rooted in capitalism and built in. A lot of men who are in so tight relationships are kind of like, just give me the checklist. Like, I would love to just like do the checklist and get it done. Because then I would know that I will have one relationship. I will have one marriage, right? I did it right. She's gonna be happy with me. I'm gonna be happy with myself and we can move forward. Yeah, I have done love. And I did it well, because look at how fast I checked all the checks, right. And in my own partnership, like we talked about that a lot, where I'm like, Hey, I'm feeling you know, when we're focusing on him, you know, hey, I feel like you know, we're checking boxes can we like back up and kind of like, observe the whole and it's a really easy thing to fall into. And love languages, give them a checklist to check down. So then even when you're using, like, using Love Languages correctly, and understanding your partner's love language as quality time, and so you're like, cool, I've gone down the list. I have spent time with them watching TV next to each other, you know, after the kids go to bed. I we took a walk on Thursday. It has the potential to give this kind of like, like not empowerment, entitlement maybe to be like, Well, I'm doing what you asked me to do. So now what else like you have to be happy with me? Because this is I've done it. Like I did what I was supposed to do. I don't know what else you want for me. And doesn't dive any the checklist doesn't dive any deeper than surface level. Right? It doesn't get to. But do you know me as a person? Do you know what TV shows? I like? Are we having discussions while we're watching or listening to whatever we're doing? And there's interaction? It just kind of gives that surface level check off like I did it. I'm done.
Michael Vaughn 29:13
Yeah, exactly. I, I find that it's an especially rough disservice. Surprisingly, to men as well in there because for saying this idea that love is somehow like a checklist for the beginning middle in it like it's task based, is, I think, a recipe for long term failure in a relationship. Love is very organic. It grows it evolves, it changes. You know, if I were applying the five love languages and saying like, Oh, yeah, my love language is receiving gifts. And you know, and then you know, my grandmother passes away. My partner Kelly isn't going to turn around and like run to the gas station and buy me you know, my favorite candy bar to cheer. me up, right? There's going to be feel better hugs. Yeah, you know, give me some some words in there to let me know that, you know, she's there for me and that she loves me and like all those good things, she may help me make arrangements to go like back home. And it's just one of those things where like, you can't apply these and say that they are static and that they are unchanging. And that's really not how relationships more love work. And it so often, I think, I know you've you and Laura have talked about like the man box in the past and how men get really narrowly defined definition of masculinity. And, you know, I liken it back to I think we were even talking about this when we were prepping for the show, which was the the fish theory of Tinder. Where it's like, Why yes.
Crystal Britt 30:46
Oh my god, I love this. Can you? Yeah. Can you talk about this? Yes, absolutely. Do
Michael Vaughn 30:51
you float around on I think Tik Tok or Instagram where and I wish I could remember who came up with it. I really don't know offhand. But the general idea is like, you see a lot of guys on Tinder, just like with pictures of them holding fish they caught or something like that. It's like, what is going on? Why is this a trend? And if you think about men are not always analyzed based off of physical appearance, even though that is a facet of toxic masculinity. They are more so valued off of achievement, and what do they bring to the table? And so, you know, it's like, the picture of the fish is like, I did this, like, this is something I accomplished. And I would love languages send the same sort of idea to men, which is that, well, I did the checkbox, and she's still not happy. So the problem must be her. And not me understanding that, like, individual tasks are are more so like relational maintenance of this relationship. Those are things I'm gonna have to do on a regular basis. And I also think it encourages scorekeeping. Right? It's like, oh, well, yes. Isn't this Yeah. list? And I'm not sure. Yes, it looks at it as organically or as cohesively when they're trying to apply this model to their relationships. Yeah.
Crystal Britt 32:04
Absolutely. And I think to like to your point, it does it robs men of it keeps men within the man box, because I have the printout right here. Let me see which pillar upholds this. I mean, heterosexuality and homophobia, the rigid masculine gender roles, right and self sufficiency, right up being like, well, I did it, I kept all of my you know, I, you asked me to do it, like, because, okay, oh, backup membranes running at 100 miles a minute. When you are in, if I'm in a situation where a couple comes to me, and they're like, We tried five love languages, you know, and the partner shows up to couples therapy. I know two things about this guy, he wants to save us relationship so far that he's willing to, you know, I mean, a lot of men equate going to therapy as a like Rose Hackman talks about, like, the proximity that the more proximity, the closer the proximity to femininity that men have, the more dangerous it is for them, the more outs did they are by other men. So if he's sitting in my therapy office, like he's willing to risk something substantial, this five love languages, keeps, keeps men like this in a box and robs them of true vulnerability. Because it works with under that capitalism competition. It even if it's competition with themselves of like, like, did all the things that were expected of me, I don't know what else to do. Because it doesn't dive any deeper into tender, vulnerable parts. It just keeps it at that surface level, which, yeah, robs them of the experience of feeling emotions, and being able to feel truly feel deeply loved by their partner. Right. And it's hard because oftentimes, I feel like it's an invisible wall that a lot of men don't even know is there. Because they were born with it in place, you know, the system, put it in place for them.
Michael Vaughn 33:57
Yeah, that's why we talked about these things as like they are systematic issues. These are systematic challenges. And even, oh, gosh, it's gonna slip away from our brain, I feel like, but they're even several examples throughout the book where words of affirmation in the context of a man having that as love language is really just I want my wife to nag me less. I,
Crystal Britt 34:21
Jesus Christ.
Michael Vaughn 34:22
It makes me think about like, literally everything you and Laura have talked about for the past year plus, on the podcast, and not just that, but you know, on social media, too, and even I think it was like Laura, who would talk about the Nag Paradox a lot.
Crystal Britt 34:36
Yeah,
Michael Vaughn 34:37
like, if I want to get things done, I have to nag. But if I nag, then they don't want to do it. Because I've nagged and it's like, you end up in a little bit of a rough spot there. So really, like words of affirmation was just the superficiality where it was like, Okay, I'm not gonna be too hard on him. I'll put up with knocking that I need and just kind of paint over it with rosy colored glasses and not make a big Do I the things that I want or that I need this relationship? And again, it was just one of those things where some of those examples really did drift over into misogyny where it was like, again, a woman is being expected change herself to make it easier and more comfortable for a man that she is in a relationship with. And that does extend Yeah, a little bit. So I know with respect to time, like you try and keep the podcast under a certain limit. So this might be a good-
Crystal Britt 35:27
We're doing great on time. Okay, we're doing we're doing Yeah, we're doing great on time.
Michael Vaughn 35:33
So this might be a good opportunity to transition into chatting about chapter 12. So you and Laura have this podcast so that people can bring you their dirty laundry and you help them clean up their shit. So if someone had reached out to you all through, like voicemail, like I know that they can call in, leave a voice message, I know that they can just email you, or send you messages on social media. If someone came to you and said, My husband is refusing to go to counseling, they have cursed at me, they mistreat me, they have told me that they hate me. I feel like he ignores me all the time, when we have sexual encounters, I feel like I am just being used like my body is being used. I am curious what your advice to that person would be. Let's just call her Anne since that's her name in chapter 12 of the book.
Crystal Britt 36:27
This is an example from the book. This is an example from the book. If the answer is anything to Gary Chapman, if there is any answer other than here are domestic violence resources, like and then having like a tender conversation around like, what intimate partner violence looks like? It's the wrong answer. And definitely shouldn't be editor of this book should have been like, "Ah, maybe we leave this out."
Michael Vaughn 36:56
I have a feeling you're gonna be you remember a little bit earlier. I was like, I'm fired up. But I'm ready to go. And I used other words to say that this was the part of the notes I was working on. So in chapter 12, it's called Loving the unlovely, which is an incredibly kind word-
Crystal Britt 37:14
Shut up. Oh, my God,
Michael Vaughn 37:18
Primarily built around a story of Gary Chapman counseling a woman named Anne in his church. And she had talked to other people about her relationship with her husband. She had talked to friends, the universal universal advice that she was getting back was to get out there's a literal quote from the book, allegedly from a man. People told her get out of this relationship. If yeah, TikTok about this. The comments would be full of people like the comment
Crystal Britt 37:46
The comment section would be full of "Yeah, girl leave."
Michael Vaughn 37:49
Yeah, have you heard of fresh starts registry? You know, like, yeah, for sure. Again, her husband refused to go to counseling. And this is I think that one of the biggest examples of how deeply rooted misogyny is in the development and implementation of five languages according to the book's author. One of the first things that Gary Chapman does is he weaponizes religion against an HE passage from the Bible, it was something that Jesus said, I'll go ahead and read it out loud. I tell you who hear Me Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. Bless those who curse you. Pray for those who mistreat you due to other duties. If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? even sinners love those who love them. And then he,
Crystal Britt 38:44
I want to fucking set my computer on fire Michael.
Michael Vaughn 38:49
to for like guiding questions in his counseling with an and he said, does that sound like your husband? Has he treated you as an enemy rather than a friend? And answered Yes. Has he ever cursed you? She said many times. Has he ever mistreated you? She said often? And now he says And has he told you he hates you? And she said yes. And his advice. The first part of his advice was that she go home and have a conversation with her husband. And literally ask him how can I be a better wife to you?
Crystal Britt 39:27
That was why I'm so sorry. Yes, yep. Shit on me more shit on me more is what he says to her?
Michael Vaughn 39:36
Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to go to counseling notice the Gary Chapman never once said and you should encourage your husband to come talk to me or give me his contact information. I will reach out to him. Yeah, I will go to him. I will talk to him about how he treats you and how poorly he treats you like he saw like if we were just out on the street, and we saw a woman being sworn at or some man yelling and be like I hate You like saying really nasty things, people would intervene, someone would intervene, you're absolutely out of line, this behavior is unacceptable. And some spaces it's even illegal. And so yeah, and even in people in the counseling spaces would be like, these are key hallmark characteristics of an abusive relationship. Yeah, asked and answered.
Crystal Britt 40:24
More, more than that. Yeah, like, you know, these things. Yes. And more than that the licensed therapist would be held liable legally, if something happens to that client, right, like failure, like failure to, you know, appropriately. I mean, they could be brought to court and fully sued for that. So like the Oh, my God, so swarmy. Okay, sorry, keep going.
Michael Vaughn 40:50
So he proposed to an a six month plan to get her marriage back on track. Guess who's doing the work in there and is doing the work? Yeah,
Crystal Britt 40:58
no, shit. Yeah, here's your plan.
Michael Vaughn 41:00
And so again, it falls under I think I literally put the heading in our note as misogynistic bullshit. And this is one of the things that I find to be really infuriating about this book. So the six month plan for an first part was her going home and asking her husband who was abusive, how she can be a better wife to him. And then whatever he says she's meant to do it. Chapman shockingly deduced from his conversations with an that Anne's husband's love language is physical touch.
Crystal Britt 41:35
Oh, no kidding,
Michael Vaughn 41:36
I'm seeing your shock face, I'm seeing your shock face. I'm gonna be very mindful about the words that I use here because I wrote it very differently in our notes, and in it, he told her to initiate sex more frequently with her husband to like if he asks her for sex, or tries to initiate sex, to have sex with him. And she literally said to him, this is a quote from the book, I found it hard to be sexually responsive to him, when he ignored me all the time, I felt used rather than loved in our sexual encounters, he acts as though I am totally unimportant all the rest of the time, and then wants to jump in bed and use my body. Those were the words that she used to him. In in the book, like it was literally in chapter 12 of the book, The Five Love Languages. And this is like the the core original book. So The Five Love Languages how to express heartfelt communicate or commitment to your mate. And he tells her that basically how she feels doesn't matter. And that she needs to look at as you know, love is a feeling. But love is also an act and encourages her to pray on it and reread the passage from earlier where the whole Jesus love your neighbor, Golden Rule thing. To build on that that recurring theme of women need to change themselves to ignore their needs in service of men that they are in relationship with. He shares with us the reader like and this is the important part. This is again, media literacy that we talked about the beginning, when Gary shares stories like this in the book, the story about the end is not for and it is for us as Yes, it is meant to be a metaphor or a parable of some type. And he probably sees it as a parable, given his background, so shares privately with us as a reader, that if this experiment was going to get off the ground, it would be because of Anne's deep faith in God. And again, now another example suggesting that if this fails, like if this plan of his fails, it will not be because of the horrific actions of ants husband, it will because adds faith and God wasn't good or strong enough. And this is again, it was one of the worst chapters in the entire book. I'm not sure how it got into the publishing process. I'm not sure what ed or looked at. I know it was the early 90s.
Crystal Britt 44:09
Yeah, I was gonna say, well, and also it may have been Tyndale or I mean, I shouldn't slander Tyndale, I It's there are a number of Christian publishers that kind of do that crossover thing where like, I'm sure that I mean, I don't know, I can't name off the top of my head authors who have published in the Christian and then have jumped over to a mainstream publisher or partnered with a mainstream publisher. But I know there have been some, so it could have been possible to this got in through a Christian publisher who was like, Yeah, that sounds right. Which is absolutely bonkers to me. Because of I mean, Jesus Christ, it's there's so I mean, clearly there's so yeah, literally, there's so much here and the I love that he caps it all off in his inner reaction with an with spiritual bypassing. Spiritual bypassing is something that is very common in any high control religion, where when you kind of get to a stuck spot, you suggest that they crave, like they pray more, or they have more faith, or they need to be doing faith acts in order to strengthen their faith or have more, you know, have more, essentially, like, behind their actions so that God is backing their actions more. Which is so paint. I mean, he took this woman who came into his office, spun her around four times, and then turned her right toward the door and shoved her out. And was like, Don't Don't slander your husband again. Like See you later. hope things work out. If it didn't, it's your fault. Because you didn't pray enough. Like it's so, so harmful, so much harm. I hope that this is a made up story. Like I hope that this is like some sort of amalgamation because if not like this woman, if you're and you're listening to this podcast, we would love for you to DM us to let us know how the story ended. Because this is like you could not give. You could not get worse advice. You could not give a worse outcome to someone seeking help desperately who's feeling abused in her intimate relationship.
Michael Vaughn 46:24
And I'm not even I, I'm trying to remember, I've got the book up on another screen. And let's see, he kept encouraging her to stick with this six month experiment. And to this day, like this is how he ends the story. To this day, Glen and husband swears to his friends that I Gary Chapman am a miracle worker.
Crystal Britt 46:51
Shut the fuck up. Oh my god.
Michael Vaughn 46:55
We have no follow up for
Crystal Britt 46:57
this dude saved my marriage by? Yeah, yeah, this dude saved my marriage by telling my wife to do exactly what I was asking her to do with no pushback. That's great. So high five.
Michael Vaughn 47:09
Then Glen's secondary love language is words of affirmation, which in his context meant his wife stop nagging him to do things around the house. Yeah.
Crystal Britt 47:17
And we have another clinical term for that when those two combined and you're presented with this kind of Glenn situation and words of affirmation then translates into narcissism. That's what that is. What is absolutely bonkers to me is the irony. And to be to be fully transparent and completely clear. I still identify as Christian, it's very loose, that I like, use that term, because a lot of Christians would disagree, but I am a Christian. But the way that he has used the sermon literally, that's from the Sermon on the Mount, I like I was like three credit shy of a Bible minor, because that's how you do things in Christian universities, which I went to, um, but it uses a passage from the Sermon on the Mount, which is meant to be for the most marginalized population, it is not meant for those in power, it is not meant for the oppressors. It is not meant for the religious folks who are in charge and oppressing people at that time. It's for the people who were most in need to take that and the to use that against her brings to mind another parable that Jesus used about teachers that offer the wrong teaching and mislead people, that it would be better for a millstone to be tied around their neck and thrown into the sea of Galilee, than it would be for them to continue to do that. Like that is the picture that I have of like, that's how Chapman like the Jesus that Chapman serves. That's how Jesus feels about that. Like, it makes me so enraged when vulnerable people come and then their faith is used against them, and additionally as a reason to not withstand, but like, carry that burden, that burden of being mistreated by your partner where it's like, well, that's just how he is, you know, what are you going to do can't change people, but I'm asking you to change everything you're doing. So you could do it probably.
Michael Vaughn 49:13
Exactly. Yeah. It's it. Yeah. It's the the time honored tradition of the oppressed using the language of are I sorry, the oppressed? Yes. The language of the oppressed? And yes, absolutely. And I There are that we could talk about with this. Like there are studies about love languages, most of them have found that adhering to the process has no tangible effect on our relationship. There were two that seemed
Crystal Britt 49:39
Yeah. Can we go over that research a little bit? Yeah, absolutely.
Michael Vaughn 49:42
So one of those studies, essentially just found that it was a broader finding. So it wasn't necessarily five languages. They were trying to study five love languages, but what they found in support of it was that if you communicate your needs to your partner and they meet those needs that you have a higher rate of satisfaction in your relationship. Crazy.
Crystal Britt 50:07
That's bonkers. That's bonkers stuff.
Michael Vaughn 50:10
Yeah there was another study that looked at college age students. It was called revisiting the languages of love and empirical tests of the validity assumptions underlying Chapman's 2015 Five Love Languages typology. So this was a study that and I'm sure we can toss a link in the show notes or something like I always say like, yeah,
Crystal Britt 50:34
oh, no, all of this. All of this know that you did all the work for me. I'm gonna copy and paste all of these links into the into the show notes. Have you shown up since episode? Oh, no, it's time to leave, you just leave them in. People will just assume I wrote it. Yeah.
Michael Vaughn 50:52
But in this study, the the essential structure was it was a it was just over 300 college students, they gave them a survey and the survey was really just four questions. And the questions were open ended prompts. It was how do you prefer to show your partner love? And what is a recent example of that? And then how do you prefer your partner shows you love and was a recent example. And that was that was the whole study. It's worth noting, for folks who are listening to this, like if you don't have a background, academic research or anything like that, it's totally okay. Generally speaking, that there are kind of like two forms of research. There's qualitative and quantitative and quantitative, it's like it we're measuring something specifically, like if you happen to buy four pallets worth of insulation from Lowe's, Home Improvement, test out the impacts of that between two different rooms in your house like one with installation one without and see what the temperature is you can get really specific readings, look at the differences. quantitative. Qualitative is more like open ended, here's some data directly from interviews like that, and try to figure out what sort of an umbrella might that fall under. So it when we asked these questions, what sort of love language might be defined by that, and what I found very funny about this study was, they say in their that, that their results equate to substantial support for the validity of love languages, but they were so torn over how to group a few dozen of the responses from these student surveys, that they actually had to create a six love language so that to me, it does not feel like oh, shun the five loves exist. They actually had to create a service within there. I wish I had written down which one it was. I would have to Yeah,
Crystal Britt 52:39
here I'll pull up the I'll pull up a study and look because I'm really interested to see what the sixth one was fascinating.
Michael Vaughn 52:45
I think it was towards the end, were they out? Okay, but the reason that that's important is you would think that Gary Chapman would turn around be like, hey, this study says the totally supports my work. But he still believes very firmly like as of I think it was 2018 No, no, two years ago, so it would have been 2021 I'm gonna say two years. I know it's 2024 now, but I believe 2021
Crystal Britt 53:08
I'm on that same. I'm on that same timeline. Yeah.
Michael Vaughn 53:11
But you said in the interview Gary Chapman did with The New York Times that he doesn't believe anyone has discovered a six love language yet. That's how solid he thinks his ideas are. Like she's
Crystal Britt 53:21
crazy. What beers later the audacity. Okay, you're gonna love this. The sixth check in lovely or I'm sorry, the sixth love language is check ins. So that's wild. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, literally, oh, my God. Oh, you know what,
Michael Vaughn 53:40
just one of the examples they gave in the sorry, it was like my partner sends me memes that they think I'll enjoy. Yes,
Crystal Britt 53:45
no. Okay. 100%, which is so interesting that Chapman was vehemently against a six love language. Because you know what that sounds like, to me. My goal, which you point out toward the end, is bids for connection is what that sounds like to me. So let's talk for a second about Gottman seven principles, which is empirically and evidence based. It is actually we call it in. I mean, I'm sure they call it in other professions, but in psychology, we call it evidence based practice ebp we always operate from ebp anything that you do in therapy should not be something your therapists on tick tock unless it's backed by evidence based practice. This is backed by years of research by to clinical psychologists who have PhDs. Um, so let's talk a little bit about Gottman and what an alternative to Five Love Languages could be.
Michael Vaughn 54:39
Yeah, I think that's really the perfect transition. I know that there are gonna be some folks who will be diehard Love Languages till the end. And we talked about some of the the challenges that come along with that because it does have a very strong religious influence. And so if you've shared that religion, it's very easy to feel like your religion is being criticized or you as a person are being Maybe you found an awful lot of value from talking with your partner using the language of the five love languages. And, again, we totally get that any tool that works for you is going to be any language that works for you is going to be good. We're just talking about some of the underlying problems with that theory. And quite frankly, that when this is studied in academic context, it does not typically come as something that is supported as being valid. So the things that are supported as being valid and healthy to the long term success of a relationship fall under Dr. John Gottman. Seven Principles. I don't remember what the full name was. But
Crystal Britt 55:40
yeah, the book is, the book is no, that's okay. The book is Seven Principles for Making marriage work, which I recommend to any partnered couple. And his wife's name is Julie. It's John and Julie Gottman.
Michael Vaughn 55:54
But they've done some really fantastic work around these practices and stress testing them and they have been peer reviewed and all those good things. So one of those was, see I've got the seven principles up here. I hope I copied the right ones. They were the sharing love maps, nurturing fondness and admiration, turning towards each other and step away to those look, right?
Crystal Britt 56:16
Yes, these these are right, the way I know that is that this was what we based, like, we had a really bad premarital counseling experience. And it was during the middle of our deconstruction, which you can imagine what went really well. But the turning toward each other instead of a way is something I still talk to clients about. Because that was really influential for us. So yeah, this is these are the seven.
Michael Vaughn 56:38
Yeah. So just to give those a little bit more depth and context. So sharing love maps, nurturing fondness and admiration, turning toward each other, instead of a way, letting your partner influence you. Solving your solvable problems, overcoming gridlock and creating shared meaning together. And these are less so task based things, like you see in five love languages. And these are more so practices that are ongoing throughout the life of a relationship. And I like them because they're a bit more. I would say I I'm searching for the word right now. But to me, they are more substantial and less superficial.
Crystal Britt 57:23
Or more vulnerable. Yeah, it's
Michael Vaughn 57:25
not like, Oh, my partner wants me to buy them a gift. Every so often is my partner wants me to understand them on a very deep level, like more than anything else on this planet understands them to be known by me.
Crystal Britt 57:41
Yes. Yeah, it's very, it's Sorry. Go ahead. It's,
Michael Vaughn 57:45
it's big.
Crystal Britt 57:48
Yeah, it's really interesting, because there's another there's another modality of therapy that my partner and I did couples therapy beginning of last year, and it's called pact. Psychological and I don't know I'm gonna botch it, but it's PACT, founded by Stan Tatkin, that's kind of newer, like 5-10 years old, that the basis of that interaction is using the like biofeedback of like, literally the first session, our therapist made us sit and stare at each other for like, an elongated period of time, which I absolutely fucking hated. But was also the vulnerability piece that I need lifted most or needed lifted most. But it's a very, the the basis of it is being your partner's, like being your partner's whisperer, right? Like we talked about, like, the 2000s Cesar Milan being like the dog whisperer, right? Being your partner's whisperer and knowing like the very intimate details of like, Oh, my partner is upset because this just happened. Right? And so it's a much deeper understanding, as opposed to Yeah, like, I know my partner really well, because I know what kind of candy bar they like when you know, or when they're upset, I go to the gas station and get their favorite candy bar, right, this is a much deeper level will not sell as many books, right? Because it's not as catchy. And it's work. Right? It's actual self reflection, noticing paying attention to your partner. It's harder. This is harder work. Yeah,
Michael Vaughn 59:26
it's I think the dividing line is these are practices not characteristics. I know I talked about a minute ago as if they were like individual tasks, but a lot of people really absorb love languages as as a personality trait as well, which is why I'm talking about this from a critical perspective, because there are folks who feel personally attacked. What do you mean like I really like having physical contact with my partner. And just there's something insidious about that is like mean spirited or rude or you know, off base, something like that. But it's, it's more so like these are literal relationship practices, they are harder, like they're not characteristics, they are things that you do. And they are things that you continue to do throughout your life as you want to build a relationship with that person. And these are things that actually work. It's not just start middle and tasks that yes, a box and all of a sudden it's done.
Crystal Britt 1:00:30
Yeah, and you're set. And then when your partner brings up something else that they're frustrated about, you're like, Well, I don't know what to tell you. Like we watched a movie yesterday. So quality time, where are we upset? Yeah, no, I really appreciate this. Michael, this has been so impactful, and so meaningful and will research. Can you go over the couple of places that people can find you if they want to follow more of your work? I am assuming there's going to be a video series on this. I would love for there to be a video series on this that we can share and promote Oh,
Michael Vaughn 1:01:00
boy, I put a throwaway line in a single tick talk about how love languages aren't actually like how they don't really exist. And that was the thing. It wasn't even the topic of the show. It was like it was What do you mean love languages tags, so that were really nice about they were like, I've been following you for a while. I'm just kind of curious what you meant by that. And then there were other just kind of thrown this is bullshit. I am. I am unfollowing right now. And I'm like, okay, didn't realize, you know, alright, so people really adopted as a personality trait and it becomes them. And you know, we are our ideas. So it's easy to understand how some people might feel really, really upset by any criticism of this. But the easiest way to find my social accounts is just beacons.ai/world shaker. So beacons.ai/world shaker, all my accounts are listed there. All the stuff that I've worked on recently, whatever it is, will be there as well.
Crystal Britt 1:01:54
Awesome, I'll put it in the show notes. The show notes are heavy this week. So make sure you check those out. And as always, you can I would love your feedback. Lord, I would love to discuss your feedback on this. So DM us shoot us an email, leave us a voice note. And we will see you on the next one. Thank you so much, Michael, for joining us.
Michael Vaughn 1:02:13
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Laura Danger 1:02:19
Thanks for joining us on another episode of time to leave your questions and stories are what keep us going. So keep those voicemails and messages coming.
Crystal Britt 1:02:28
Until our next episode. Remember that you can always find us on social media and of course in your podcast feed. You can also subscribe for $5 a month on Spotify for uninterrupted episodes and bonus content.
Laura Danger 1:02:38
We're so grateful for your support. See you next time.