Episode 49: What if your values don’t align?

Summary

In this episode, Crystal and Laura discuss the reality show 'Welcome to Plathville' and the recent divorce of Olivia and Ethan Plath. They explore the high control environment and fundamentalist Christianity portrayed in the show, as well as the impact of coercive control and gender roles on their relationship. The conversation delves into the importance of autonomy and principles, highlighting Olivia's bravery in standing up for her beliefs. They also discuss the negative reactions from the media and comment section, and the culture of othering and self-hatred that often arises in these situations. The episode concludes with a reflection on the need to question traditional roles and beliefs and the importance of ethical alignment in relationships.

Transcript

Crystal she/her/hers (00:35)

Hey everybody, welcome back to Time to Lean. I'm Crystal, this is Laura. We're really excited to have you today because we're gonna talk, you know we love talking about reality TV. We absolutely love it. And we came across a video that someone dropped into our DMs that we wanna, share with you, talk about, and this is interesting because Laura and I don't have context. The context that we have for this reality show, you are hearing us develop in real time. This isn't one that either of us has been following. So Laura, can you tell us a little bit about what we're looking at, what we got sent?

Laura (01:24)

Yeah, so this video is, is the show just called Plathville?

Crystal she/her/hers (01:30)

It's called, excuse me, it's called Welcome to Platteville.

Laura (01:34)

Welcome to Plathville. It's been on the air for seasons and seasons. If you've watched it, you know more than we do. But it's, I wanna say in the realm of like the Duggars type, like fundamentalist Christianity and this family, I think the way I always saw it advertised, it's like TLC. And it's like, look at how like these kids were so sheltered.

Crystal she/her/hers (01:47)

Yeah.

Laura (02:03)

and very high control environment. And it looks like this is like a couple who got married very young, they are 25 years old, Olivia and Ethan. Okay, so we were given, we were sent this clip, it's now that we have investigated, it's the last couple of minutes of a season finale, like I don't know when, but this is just a snippet of a longer conversation, which...

Crystal she/her/hers (02:16)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Laura (02:32)

I can read off more of it once we listen.

Crystal she/her/hers (02:35)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (02:51)

Okay, so the scene is two blonde white people, 25 year olds, very blonde, sitting on a couch in what looks like a, just in their house, looks like.

Crystal she/her/hers (02:57)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Laura (03:06)

She's staring into space.

Okay, that's the clip.

Crystal she/her/hers (03:48)

That's it. That's the whole episode. All right. Thanks everybody for listening. Like it's so, this is so interesting to me off the back of things like the Duggars. I also, okay, I just want to throw in some tidbits for people who also have no context for Welcome to Plathville. And I don't know. I don't know. I could go off on a millennial Gen Z tangent here. I don't know if it's because like I, you know, I don't TLC is not, it's is not like something that I regularly watch, but it's also something I probably actively

multiple efforts to televise fundamentalists and get this message out there. So the Plath family is headed by Barry and Kim, those are the parents. They announced on June 28th, 2022 that they were divorcing. They have, yeah, okay, yes, right. Okay, why the surprise? Because I thought the same

Laura (04:34)

Oh, really?

that doesn't seem in line with their Christian values.

Crystal she/her/hers (04:49)

It also, yes. And it also doesn't, for as many news articles that highlight how Olivia, they have decided to get divorced. The Ethan and Olivia, the two you heard in that clip. The amount of press that she's getting for like, oh, she's already dating and like all of this shit is like, she's being like, she's not being demonized, but she's being criticized in the media considering the parents, I don't know, I mean.

This article does not say, this is, it doesn't even have a Wikipedia. This is Fundie fandom, like Fundie's fundamentalist Wiki that I'm getting this from. But that's, that's ballsy to like, you know, for one of your, okay, this is the other point that I think is really interesting. She married into the family. The guy in that video is the oldest son. Yeah, yeah. Which,

Laura (05:39)

Oh, oh. Okay, I don't know. It does, yeah. And good for her. Also, I'm looking at a People Magazine article and it says, like Kim 51 and Barry 55, the parents, are also, you're telling me they also announced their plan to divorce. They've been married.

Crystal she/her/hers (05:44)

Once I read that, I was like, oh, that makes more sense.

Laura (06:09)

25 years. "I feel like if Barry had been able to tune in emotionally to what's going on years ago, then you know, we would probably be on a different path right now. So given the context, yes, from Kim, from Kim. So given that context, the Olivia, and she kept her name apparently, Plath.

Crystal she/her/hers (06:21)

Is that a quote? Is that a quote from Kim?

This was a good pick.

Yes, Plath, yeah.

Laura (06:35)

Olivia saying that I'm fine doing these things, that is not the problem. I'm happy to cook if that's something that I like to do and it was met with excitement and enthusiasm and like that was the thing that we were doing together, that's fine, but she nails it. She nails it. When it's met with you will love me less, if I don't, that's coercive.

Crystal she/her/hers (07:00)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I don't want to be in a relationship like that.

Laura (07:05)

And she said, I don't want to perpetuate this. And I think that in this People article, she says like, they had hypothetical children or Olivia had hypothetical children in mind. And you and I have talked about these studies before where it's like women who have daughters are more likely to get divorced when their kids are teenagers. And I fully, you know, this is not, I don't have no evidence to back this up.

that is on research. But I suspect that it's because of that, not wanting your daughter to do the same thing. I wonder how, I wonder if Kim called and was like, I'm sorry.

Crystal she/her/hers (07:41)

Mm-hmm.

When you said that, when you gave that quote from Kim, I thought the same thing. I wonder if there was a cop, especially with her, Olivia's husband, the oldest son, Ethan, being the oldest son, I wonder if there was some sort of conversation, even if there wasn't, right? Like even if there was some, like just witnessing that, with that kind of insight, I don't know how there couldn't be a conversation between the two of them of like, yeah, I'm sorry.

that this is what I also it's very interesting to me where I'm like, why are we not covering these two women and, and more in depth of the why and maybe people are like, clearly we just discovered this today, but I would be so interested to hear what that journey was like, like Kim in that quote very clearly nails. Maybe if he had been more maybe if Berry had been more emotionally attuned 20 years ago, this would have been okay. Like that's very, that's work. Someone cooked here.

Do you know what I mean? Like this is not like somebody cooked here. And with Olivia as well, like in that fandom Wiki, it's like, it says that she's a wedding photographer and that Ethan is a mechanic. I'm wondering if through building her own business and building like, I don't know, community, if she looked around and was like, what the fuck is happening? Also good on her for like such a quick, being aware for a quick turnaround, five years. Like that's pretty impressive.

Laura (08:50)

Yeah.

I mean, it's a good thing she didn't get pregnant.

Crystal she/her/hers (09:23)

Makes my heart sink.

Laura (09:24)

I wouldn't, yeah. A couple of, I wanna say it's a couple of years ago now. And I wanna say I kind of regret, I do regret how I handled it. But there was a video that went around and it was like, it was like a woman who was like getting dressed in the mirror and she was like, ugh, like wife problems, can't even get a second to myself. And it's like, it was the whole thing where it was like bringing the baby to her.

Crystal she/her/hers (09:53)

Mm-hmm. She's trying to get space. Mm-hmm.

Laura (09:53)

or being like, baby needs something. She's trying to do her hair. She can't even do it because like husband keeps bringing the baby. And at the time, I want to say it was like sort of the beginning of, it must have been 2021 or something. So weaponized incompetence hadn't really become a widely known thing. And I think the culture was just very different. And my account was small, much smaller.

Crystal she/her/hers (10:01)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Laura (10:23)

So this woman, I made a video in response and I was like, you know, that doesn't have to be it, or something like that. Like this doesn't have to be the reality. This doesn't have to be motherhood. Like he can do more. Something, and I think I used like, I used more of a put down attitude than I should have. And she responded incredibly defensively, very defensive. Lashed out at me, was really mad. And.

Crystal she/her/hers (10:30)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Laura (10:52)

quickly people on my page went to hers and saw other videos of her husband being a piece of shit. Like, it was like videos of her filming him where it was like, you don't, I don't know. It was like him insulting her for being lazy and him not helping out. And it was really, it was an issue. So oh my God, it was the first time I said.

Crystal she/her/hers (10:58)

Mmmm

Laura (11:21)

I think it was the first time I said like mediocre men benefit from the abuses of shitty ones. That's where that came from. Because her defense of him was, I would know, I've been in abusive relationships before. I've been treated like shit and this is not being treated like shit. And was like, he treats me great and he goes to work and blah blah. And people are like, hold up, maybe.

Crystal she/her/hers (11:27)

Mmm.

UGH

Laura (11:51)

Maybe he's not that great. Maybe he's not actually, like he might be nicer than your abusive piece of shit ex.

Crystal she/her/hers (11:57)

Right. Like that is possible. And also...

Laura (12:05)

And I think, yeah, I can't even remember what I was getting at with that. But she was really, really young. She was very young. She was like in her early 20s, I think had left an abusive relationship with a kid and then had this other, had jumped right in with this dude and had another baby. Of course, all of this is like public on her page. And I was harsher than...

Crystal she/her/hers (12:15)

Mm-mm.

Right.

Laura (12:33)

I should have been. I was harsher than I should have been. Yeah, I don't know. It's.

Crystal she/her/hers (12:39)

Yeah, I feel like especially, I mean, especially then like weaponized incompetence and like the attention to the attention to where the bar is, right, has been under a microscope since 2020 and really hasn't caught on in public discourse since like late 2021 early 2022. Right? Like I feel like because I'm thinking about all of the books that have come out since then, right?

Laura (13:07)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her/hers (13:09)

pieces of influence in that space, Mom Fluenced, Mom Rage, Touched Out, like all of these books are just now coming out because they've been part of public discourse for a couple of years. And that's a really interesting point that I'm curious, I'm curious how you handle or how you would handle with maybe people who are listening of being in that position where they're like, well, maybe this isn't ideal, but this is like, but this is heads and shoulders above.

where I have been, right? Like when our kids were little, like early, early elementary school and starting to do the thing of like making friends, it was some acquaintance that we had that said, we have conversations with our kids around what does that, to distinguish bullying, that's what it was, to distinguish like bullying from like kids being dumb and like not trying to, like intent versus impact. And so we have conversations with our kids still

remind me how you know someone's a friend. Like remind me what the definition of that is, right? So for this too, I feel like part of kind of the deconstruction of hierarchy and patriarchy, especially within deconstructing faith is what is a partner? If Ethan Plath's definition of a partner is making three square meals a day, okay.

Like in the absolute minimum nicest way I can say this, okay. And from her perspective, I don't want a relationship like that. That's not what a spouse is to me. And I don't want to be in that kind of relationship.

Laura (14:53)

Let me read you this quote. So she goes on to say, oh no, him. This is a back and forth from the same conversation they had. One of the biggest things that could be done on your end to try to make this work would be to go back and try to mend your relationships with your family and try to get back to some of the roots and values that were instilled in you and how you grew up. So it sounds like

Both of them might have been estranged a bit from their families and maybe especially her and that had to do with faith.

Crystal she/her/hers (15:25)

Yeah, I'm wondering, because I feel like I have seen or been tagged in a couple of videos before like this conversation where it's like clear that they're going to split up, where it was like her talking about kind of her journey. That's what made me think, I think those clips are what made me think she was the daughter of the Plath family and he married in. But...

It's so interesting to me. It's so interesting to me that would be because it's almost. Let's just stop talking about it. Just stop it's, and it's a, and it's a very, um, like evangelical thing and fundamentalist thing to be like, well, the company you keep, well, if you keep thinking about it, well, if you keep dwelling on like that's from, I mean, one of the places that they talk about it is like in a place in Romans where

Laura (15:59)

Oh yeah, yeah.

Yes, yes, yes.

Crystal she/her/hers (16:16)

you know, God is quoted as, or no, the Bible is quoted as saying in Romans, uh, you know, that which, uh, that they gave them, that like, sinners gave themselves over to this sin. God tried to like pull them back from it and they wouldn't cooperate. So he just gave them over to their sin and was like, all right, well, so there's an undercurrent covert messaging and fundamentalism that if you continue to think about things that are not in line with our teachings and not

biblical and not in line with this worldview, God just made, you're gonna lose that, it's called like a hedge of protection is the phrase that's used a lot. You're gonna lose that hedge of protection that God provides for you while you're being obedient. So just stop thinking about it. Or you're gonna be like, that sin's gonna take you over and you're gonna become a crazy liberal. Like clearly I'm paraphrasing, but that's the idea. Just spend time with people who don't talk like

Laura (17:05)

Yeah, it's on, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, OK. Yeah, in this article, it goes on to say.

cheese. Hold

Yeah, she says, he's like, you should just go back to what you were doing. And she says, I feel like if you're searching for something that you haven't found that maybe is trying to take the place of that, I don't know if there's a replacement. The faith in the world that I grew up in is a world built for men, that worked for men.

Crystal she/her/hers (17:45)

and

Laura (17:47)

and to tell me that I need to go back to a culture and a faith and a belief that told me that I was worth nothing without a husband. That in a relationship, I just need to submit and say yes and cook three meals a day, praise God, and it would all be fine. I don't think you understand the privilege you have to look at me and tell me I need to go back to that because it served you. Ethan says, yeah, yeah.

Crystal she/her/hers (18:10)

What book did she read? Like, clearly there's very, like, okay, like where did you get, like, I'm so fascinated.

Laura (18:17)

She says, or he says, there are roles that a man plays that are different than a woman plays and roles which says that's a weight on a man's heart. When's the last time you cooked? I feel like I have to draw the line in the sand and say this is the absolute limit where my personal beliefs will let me go with where you are now and bringing kids into the mix of that with that, because they're just not compatible. I first told you things that I've been holding inside for a long time.

And that is that if there was anyone on the face of this earth today that I could have kids with, I would want it to be you. And I love you very much and I wish that that's the way things could be. But I also in good conscience holding the beliefs and values that I have and with the way that you have changed, I cannot see how I can do that. There's just things I'm not okay with. The children that I raised growing up to think and believe, it's a matter of principle to me. Oh, that's what he said.

Crystal she/her/hers (19:13)

That's what he said to her. Say more, say more.

Laura (19:15)

Are you fucking kidding me?

Oh my God, okay, tearfully, Olivia responded, I'm the kid of two people whose principles matter more than a relationship with their daughter. Now.

Crystal she/her/hers (19:30)

Oh, that's the clip I saw. This is the clip I saw. Yep.

Laura (19:33)

I will be damned if I repeat that. So yeah, it hurts that I feel like I've been committed to this relationship and I do feel that you've made the choice for us to not be together, but I support the choice. And I do think that that's the right move for what we both want for our futures. She says, I love you as a person. I think you're not the right romantic. We're not the right romantic partners for each other, but I still love you. I still love you and want the best for you. I...

That's okay. That's what gets me. And I cannot imagine what a fucking slice to like the gut to have your parents cut you off because you wouldn't submit and you wouldn't give up your autonomy and your principles and your humanity. They cut ties and then the person that you committed you thought was going to care for you in, I don't know, replacement was going to prove that you had worth and value as yourself.

fucks you over like that?

Crystal she/her/hers (20:36)

Yep. And for her... Go ahead, go ahead.

Laura (20:38)

And then the fucking media, the media. Can we have her on?

Crystal she/her/hers (20:46)

was going to say, can we get her on or send her a care package or both? That would be great. It is wild to me that and typical, so typical, right? This is what I'm saying about TLC. I don't understand what kind of vested interest they have in fundamentalism if this were owned. But if that entity were owned by fundamentalist Christians, this would not surprise me at all. I would not be stunned in the least.

because this is the kind of thing, like the cover up with Josh Duggar while they were filming and continued to film, all that kind of shit, this has to be owned by someone with a vested interest.

Laura (21:26)

Oh yeah, definitely.

Crystal she/her/hers (21:27)

But it is so and heartbreaking, right? Wild and heartbreaking to me that there are like that line, oh my God, like I come from two people whose principles are more important than their daughter. So like I get it and I'm not going to repeat that fucking pattern and clearly you're willing to sacrifice this relationship because your principles are more important than growing, understanding, evolving.

And what's stunning to me is that she is standing so tall and clear and direct on it. That's why I'm like, I don't know, man, was she like in college and then, or like started Bible college and then like kind of got sucked in, but had different, I mean, if she was raised by people who are similar, I guess not. Like she's got a lot of bravery and courage and fortitude to

Laura (22:03)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her/hers (22:25)

to be like, yeah, I'm not wrong, you're wrong. And you're the one who's willing to sacrifice our relationship for that. So that's, and I support that. That sounds like a good idea.

Laura (22:35)

Mm-hmm. So I just went to her Instagram.

Crystal she/her/hers (22:41)

Okay, tea.

Laura (22:43)

First of all, I'm gonna follow her. But she's got a picture of her and a friend dressed up like Thelma and Louise. And...

Crystal she/her/hers (22:51)

Holy shit, that's so good.

Laura (22:54)

The comment section is horrible.

Crystal she/her/hers (22:58)

Oh, I can't imagine. She was platformed and filmed for five seasons. There are five seasons of this show. So it had to have been right when they were first married. I'm gonna have to binge this whole show now, huh?

Laura (23:10)

Yeah, so people, it sounds like a lot of, here's the thing.

This is going to be, we're going to have to follow up on this.

Okay, there's a comment section. There's a comment section full of self-hating individuals, people with internalized misogyny. I thought this was gonna be a bunch of men who were like, you're a lesbian, or a couple of them, who are like, you're a self-obsessed lesbian, she her pronouns, blah. But there's that. And then there's a ton of women, a ton of women who are hating on her, putting her down.

Crystal she/her/hers (23:48)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (23:52)

And like I see Pearl, I see the men's rights activists, I see these internalized misogyny women, and I just feel sad and like really bummed, but also when you're like, just consider if she didn't have the bravery or support, like there's gotta be support somewhere. If she didn't have that.

Crystal she/her/hers (23:56)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yes.

Laura (24:19)

And she knew in her heart that this was hurting her. She would have to become that she would have to find a way to convince herself that anybody who did something different was there was something wrong with them. It's self protective. So

Crystal she/her/hers (24:32)

Yes, inherently. It's self-protective, and it's where our brains go to in order to psychologically handle the devastation of something like that.

Laura (24:44)

Yeah. Well, and then to your right, like everybody else is bad. That's high control. Anything, religion, occult, the military, like, don't take this. Please don't take this as me hating on any of those things. It's true that there is a culture of othering. Um, so yeah, like you have to figure out that you're right. And why are you right? Cause everyone else is wrong.

Crystal she/her/hers (24:54)

Yes.

because everybody else is wrong and more than that, like evil. There is something morally objectionable, and that's why I'm standing on it. The word principle pisses me off so much. I can't even tell you. But yeah, you're exactly right. And I think we should do an episode on that about why women, because in a lot of ways, self-hating women

witness other women living in there. It's always the thing that blows my mind about the comment section of polyamorous folks, the number of women who come for them. And I'm like, who gives a shit? What are they doing? You don't know these people. You just wasted 10 minutes of your day doing this. Are

Laura (25:59)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her/hers (26:01)

you okay? But I think that there's so much to be said for how people deal with things.

Laura (26:02)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her/hers (26:11)

when they are not capable or can't, when it's not safe to do those things. I mean, there is straight out refusal. I just don't feel like that's, I feel like most of the people who experienced that have been coerced in some way.

Laura (26:24)

Mm-hmm.

Well, I mean, like, I don't know. Maybe this is incredibly radical, but like, no, it's not. Rules, all of it's made up. It's all of it. Maybe that is radical.

Crystal she/her/hers (26:38)

Everything's made up. Everything is pretend. Yep.

Laura (26:42)

So it's like, if I could get out of my own way and embrace a life where I have more of my needs met, cool. Like if I could embrace a world that allowed that for me, awesome. Why should I ever wanna squash that for someone else? That dude, you know what? That dude wanted a wife who wanted the same thing.

Crystal she/her/hers (26:54)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Laura (27:10)

Olivia wanted a partner who wanted the same thing. What's, why is anyone in the comment section, who gives a fuck?

Crystal she/her/hers (27:17)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, truly. And you're exactly right. It's because they're unhappy and dissatisfied with their own relationships and can't get out of their own way. And doing something, because even as you were saying that, if I can find a way to get my needs met, that yeah, I'm gonna choose that every time. High control religions will not promote that. That is the opposite of what you're supposed to do. Especially in fundamentalism.

The sacrifice of self is considered the most important thing you could do. Right? Deny yourself these things. Ignore that, you know what I mean? So they see it as a moral stance.

Laura (27:50)

Great.

As somebody who worked for, so I worked in a Catholic school for six years. And you know how clear and obvious it is that is weaponized when they pay you $27,000 and don't give you parental leave, but it's all just women working there? And they say, we can't pay you more because that's just like about our morals.

Crystal she/her/hers (28:15)

Yep.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Laura (28:24)

of poverty.

Crystal she/her/hers (28:27)

Yep. Yeah.

Laura (28:29)

That's just one example.

Crystal she/her/hers (28:32)

And it's, I mean, it's a very clear, it's a very clear cut example. And it's very different than for, I mean, seriously, the other thing too, people are gonna, I mean, Randall's in the comments will come for us for hating religion. But that's very different than the Catholic workers movement that you and I both read about in Becoming Kin, where Dorothy Day and that movement were Catholic.

And because they were Catholic, they said, our principles do not allow us to make above a certain amount of money. So we're signing up to live under a certain amount of wealth in order to prevent that evil from continuing on. There is a kick-ass book written by DL Mayfield about Dorothy Day. And I want to, let me look up the title of it really

Laura (29:04)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her/hers (29:30)

Let me look up the name of it.

Unruly Saint is that book. And that's a very...

If you're going to live religiously, the ethics have to align and that has to make sense. And part of ethics is not forcing someone else to live the same way you want to

Laura (30:01)

Hmm.

Crystal she/her/hers (30:02)

That's

Laura (30:06)

Let's follow that up. Let's follow that up in a next one.

Crystal she/her/hers (30:14)

Yeah. Yeah, we're going to have to because I'm going to I'm going to binge watch all of it. And then I'll have more to say I'm sure.

Laura (30:21)

If you all have thoughts on this, please DM us, send us messages. There's so much here, there's so much here.

Crystal she/her/hers (30:29)

They're so rich, rich with things. Amazing. You know where to find us, DM us,

Laura (30:31)

Yeah. Okay.

Crystal she/her/hers (30:36)

email us, and we will see you guys on the next one.

Laura (30:37)

Ha ha.

Alright, bye.