Episode 50: shouldn’t I just be grateful?

Summary

In this conversation, Laura and Crystal discuss the common dynamic of nagging and resentment in relationships. They explore the dangers of pedestalizing partners and the importance of therapy and seeking help. They also delve into the impact of systemic issues on relationships and the need for open communication. Additionally, they highlight the role of education and learning in improving relationships. This conversation explores various themes related to personal growth, systemic racism, and the journey of partnership. The hosts discuss the impact of systemic racism in cities, education, capitalism, and hierarchy. They also touch on personal challenges, such as mental health issues and leaving evangelical Christian backgrounds. The conversation emphasizes the importance of personal growth and changing identities within a partnership. It highlights the need for openness to learning and understanding, as well as the role of love as action and growth. The hosts encourage individuals to take responsibility for their own growth and provide resources for personal development.

Takeaways

• Nagging and resentment are common dynamics in relationships that can be addressed through open communication and therapy.

• Pedestalizing partners can create unrealistic expectations and hinder the growth of a healthy partnership.

• Seeking therapy and professional help can provide valuable insights and tools for navigating relationship challenges.

• Systemic issues, such as gender norms and societal expectations, can significantly impact relationships and require ongoing awareness and education.

• Open and honest communication, along with a willingness to learn and grow, are essential for building strong and equitable partnerships. Systemic racism has a profound impact on various aspects of society, including cities, education, capitalism, and hierarchy.

• Personal challenges, such as mental health issues, can significantly affect relationships and partnerships.

• Leaving a religious or belief system can lead to personal growth and a change in identity.

• Partnerships require ongoing commitment and a willingness to learn and understand each other.

• Love is not just a feeling but an action that involves nurturing oneself and others and embracing growth.

• Individuals can seek personal growth outside of therapy through books, podcasts, and other resources.

Laura (01:38.89)

Welcome back, everyone. This is Laura and Crystal. We are, how's everybody? How you doing, audience? Good? How's Crystal?

Crystal she/her (01:47.032)

I feel like, I feel like this, I feel like the same as the rest of us, uh, doing okay, doing good. I'm trying to think of what I did this week. Right. I, in this moment I am good. So it must, couldn't have been that bad. Brain smooth, head empty. I don't know.

Laura (01:57.438)

Yeah. Blank slate. Mm-hmm. So today you had a, someone wrote in, correct?

Crystal she/her (02:08.108)

Yes, someone DMed us. I want to summarize it so as to not get super specific. We always like to protect anonymity if it's not specified. But I feel like this is a super common dynamic that you and I hear about a lot and I think would benefit a wide birth. What is the word I'm looking for? A breadth of our audience. This will resonate with a lot of people.

Laura (02:30.351)

A breadth? Yeah.

Crystal she/her (02:36.072)

So in general, this person wrote in, has been partnered since they were in high school, cis-het partnership. And as they have grown together, got married, they have four kids. When the writer went back to school, they implemented fair play, division of labor looks good on paper, he participates.

Although a lot of his stuff, he does a lot of things without having to be nagged or having to be reminded. But there are some things that are on his list that like need to be done that she has to constantly remind him about. She doesn't like the dynamic of feeling like a nag. She doesn't like feeling resentful. She like wants to have a good partnership with her partner and has this like nagging feeling of, or torn, I guess, like internal conflict of, shouldn't I just be grateful?

Like, he does a lot of this.

Laura (03:31.174)

Right. And you were saying, wasn't it like, yeah, they came from the expectation that their partnership would look a certain way because they both grew up with the same cultural expectations and they have since stepped away from that now.

Crystal she/her (03:42.747)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (03:48.032)

Yes, they both grew up evangelical Christians and have left the church since then. Yes. So the, and at that time renegotiated gender norms. Like she very specifically points that out.

Laura (03:58.25)

Yes. OK. And then soon, these two are like there's going to be a transition where they are both, I think, working full time, right?

Crystal she/her (04:05.576)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, working full-time. She's going to graduate, and then they'll both be working full-time then.

Laura (04:11.57)

Okay. When you initially read this one to me before we did this, I had the same thought as you. This is so incredibly relatable. And isn't this like the broad strokes experience of so many of us, which is, hey, we signed up for one thing and it was okay or it was great and we were really excited. And then the reality or the patterns started and...

Crystal she/her (04:30.18)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (04:40.36)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (04:41.09)

things didn't shake out the way that felt good. So we changed or we tried to change and something is off. Like things have not landed the way that we thought they would land. We get this one a lot. The like things have really changed and it still feels weird. We also get, and I know that like, maybe we can talk about this a little bit, but this isn't totally on topic. The...

Crystal she/her (04:44.963)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (04:50.244)

Yeah. Mm.

Crystal she/her (04:56.088)

Mmm.

Laura (05:10.322)

you signed up for this, but you signed up for this. And the resistance to change. But I feel like this one is the most common.

Crystal she/her (05:11.9)

Hmm

Crystal she/her (05:16.817)

Mmm.

Crystal she/her (05:20.28)

I do feel like this one is the most common because I feel like people in our audience or people that find us have engaged partners or have the opposite problem where like totally disengaged partners and are trying to figure out what to do from there, where to go from there. I think this is super, I experienced this in my relationship dynamic, like if I'm gonna be completely transparent, right? This is the one that I struggle with the most. We have adjusted and I...

maybe it would be helpful to talk a little bit about what has changed that dynamic for us and what has helped us move through it instead of staying stuck in it like we were for a long time. But yeah, I think it's very common to find yourself like to have a part, especially when you like me are chronically online and you see like you see and I'm using quotes for people who can't see my hands, you know, like partners who do it all, right? Who are like dream partners, right? Who

Laura (05:55.842)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (06:16.344)

like, oh, they just get it. Like there are other couples who just get it or other partners who just get it. And like, you know, having that comparison kind of, first of all, isn't a real experience. But yeah, I like just wrestling with that. I completely lost my train of thought in the middle of that sentence. I have no way to recover it.

Laura (06:33.826)

That's, you know what, there's a reason, there are many, many reasons I do not like the, well, my husband would never. Yeah, the putting on a front of like, here is why I have, I picked a good one, I have a good relationship. And you know what really bothers me is, I'm sure people have sent it to you before, it's that fucking song where it's like,

Crystal she/her (06:45.483)

Oh yeah.

Crystal she/her (06:53.953)

Yes.

Laura (07:04.214)

My partner is, my wife is my partner, not my mom. You know what I'm talking about?

Crystal she/her (07:09.564)

What the fuck? No!

Laura (07:12.946)

It's a song that some guy wrote and he does, it's a video of him like going around the house, like doing the dishes, cleaning up. And it's supposed to be like.

Crystal she/her (07:22.992)

I get, yeah, I get the intent. I get it.

Laura (07:26.422)

But then I saw another one yesterday. It's been sent to me a couple of times. I have not acknowledged it. It's a guy who's like, my wife will never be a married single mom. And it's him doing a bunch of stuff around the house.

Crystal she/her (07:41.704)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Laura (07:44.805)

Why'd you roll your eyes?

Crystal she/her (07:47.304)

Okay, because, and to your point, I don't like this from either side of that partnership. Like I get, okay, the reason I have an issue with it is because I, as a neurodivergent person, and like part of my personality is that like, I both love and hate very clear binaries, right? This is a really good example of where I hate them, where I'm like, I understand that gets clicks, but at the same time, it has a...

Laura (07:53.002)

No, no, no.

Laura (08:07.018)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (08:17.432)

It has a level of, I don't know, like arrogance of like, here's why we're doing it correctly. Or here's how I, it's a humble brag. Is that a thing or is that just a community, like from the TV show community? Okay, that's a zeitgiest term. It's a humble brag.

Laura (08:22.622)

Yeah.

Yes, yes.

Laura (08:30.018)

Oh, no, it's just a no, it's a

Well, I made a video about some guy recently where it's no shade. It's no jab at these people directly. But being like, you all should break up with your husbands because it's not that hard to support your wife while she's sick. Not only is it a brag, but also, yeah, when Jack is sick, I have a hard... It's not...

Crystal she/her (08:48.4)

Mm-mm.

Crystal she/her (08:59.182)

You know-

Laura (09:06.574)

easy to keep things together while your partner is down. If I struggle, I really hope you're not going to tell my husband to divorce me because I have a hard time caring for him and keeping things together while he's down and out, like if he's got the flu for two weeks.

Crystal she/her (09:07.431)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (09:11.876)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (09:28.524)

Right, right. And to be fair, it's because I feel like it's a lot to be saying, it's a lot to be saying for another person, like my partner would never. It's like, okay, I mean, you're not them. So you don't know that. But also, like when I speak for myself, like, it's, I mean, kind of tongue in cheek now, but like, very much like there but for the grace of God go I like that would not take me, it would not take me too many steps to get to.

Laura (09:42.722)

Hehehehehehe

Crystal she/her (09:56.76)

yeah, I'm not engaging with that or whatever, whatever the case may be. It's the, it's the other ring of people, I guess of like, Oh, well, I would never like given, given a different, you know, given a different life or a different, you know, route I'm, I would be capable of anything. I feel like everybody would. Like, I don't, I don't know that that's unique. So I, I don't know. Again, I think that part of that is my neurodivergent brain.

Laura (09:59.286)

Yeah.

Laura (10:03.37)

Yes.

Laura (10:22.558)

No, I haven't talked very specifically about the concept of no more mediocre men in specific, but that whole thing came up because it's like, okay, you under the guise of encouraging men to be better are just patting yourself on the back for doing shit that no one would ever celebrate a woman for doing. So...

Crystal she/her (10:46.524)

Yes, it's you know what? It's the lack of self awareness. It's just it's enough self awareness where you like I get it, like creators that make that kind of content are excited and about what they've learned and want to share with other people. And to be fair, the templates that we have for that same kind of content is that you know, your wife is your partner, not your mom song kind of stuff. But it's like, okay, but maybe have coffee with another guy and talk about it.

Laura (11:07.655)

Yeah.

Laura (11:16.202)

Yeah. Well, I get annoyed, you and I have talked about this too, I get really annoyed when white women make videos where it's just all like, okay, white, okay, white women, come on, round up, have a seat, we got to talk. And it's like, I don't know, there's a nuance to, there's a nuance to it. And I think what it comes down to is like, seeing yourself as the model.

Crystal she/her (11:16.443)

instead.

Crystal she/her (11:33.805)

Lean in.

Crystal she/her (11:46.176)

Yes. Or holding yourself as the model. Being like, well, my wife will never be a married single mom. And it's like, okay.

Laura (11:46.897)

is

Laura (11:54.398)

All of my black friends are really safe with me. Like, are? That's a really weird thing to say on a public platform. I'm the safe man. Look at me. I'm a safe man.

Crystal she/her (11:57.584)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (12:09.612)

Okay, okay, I'll give you a really good alternative to and then we can, I then I can go back and look at our notes and figure out how we got here. But, but it's okay, a good example of how to do that well. Are there really funny videos of that guy who makes the videos of like, me as a tall white man, walking on a trail where mostly women walk in the morning. And he's like, Hey, bands, bands off your bodies. And he's like, as he walks by, like,

Laura (12:17.114)

So, yeah.

Laura (12:30.744)

Yes.

Laura (12:36.144)

Ha ha ha.

Crystal she/her (12:38.04)

or whatever, I don't even know if that's one he uses. But you know what I mean? Where it's like, no, that's self-aware and funny. Right, like that's like, oh, I would just like, I'm just taking up enough space in this margin, as an oppressor class in this marginalized space. Here is as much room as I am comfortable taking up because I understand, I got the assignment. It's red flag guy, he gets the assignment. He doesn't make videos about.

Laura (12:39.826)

Yeah.

Laura (12:44.468)

Yeah.

Laura (13:01.082)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (13:05.64)

how he doesn't do any of those red flag things, he waves the red flag and goes, oh, buddy. Uh. Like, that's the, I feel like that's the difference. They're not holding themselves up as the model. So with that, yeah, go ahead.

Laura (13:09.227)

Right.

Laura (13:13.867)

Yeah.

Laura (13:18.318)

And, and any, I will never pedestal, we should never pedestalize anyone ever. So that is not, yes, ever.

Crystal she/her (13:28.556)

Including us including us yeah research all the shit. We say and if we contradict ourselves go ahead and shoot us an email We would we would love to learn and address it and talk about it Especially on the internet do not put anyone on the internet on a pedestal It's it's yikes. It's yikes ease

Laura (13:37.096)

Uh-huh.

Laura (13:45.394)

No, no. Really easy for people to, yep. Okay, but this good guy, this guy, this is the good, the good guy who has changed and is along for the journey and is on board. To be fair, this person who wrote in didn't say anything about like this person patting themselves on the back in any way. And I think that

Crystal she/her (13:52.268)

Um, how did we get there? What were we talking about? Yes.

Crystal she/her (14:10.124)

No, no, it sounds like, yeah.

Laura (14:14.034)

Like that's not necessarily always the thing. Sometimes it's outsiders who are like, oh my gosh, he's so great. Especially if you come from a culture that that's real weird or he's like, yeah, thank you, that's a perfect word for it. So I would love to hear how have you worked through this? What has been your personal experience with it?

Crystal she/her (14:20.269)

Yes.

Crystal she/her (14:25.164)

Yeah, really exceptional.

Crystal she/her (14:37.42)

Yeah, so for me, so I guess it would be, it's like a twofold situation. Um, because Ben has been so engaged in figuring out how to solve the issue that is like the mental load that I have been carrying. I mean, he still will. We had a birthday party last month and our 11 year old wanted real specific shit. And I was like, I got too many appointments and he's like, no, like I'm on the birthday party. You don't need to worry about it.

Um, she specifically asked you as a spa birthday party. This is like rich kid shit. I'm like, are you okay? Where are you getting these ideas? But she had like three friends over. She wanted, uh, robes for them. Like she was like, I want to do it. Like it's a spa night. I want little robes for everybody. And I was like, to keep anyway. So he went, he was like, I go, she wants robes and like, that's all. We're not getting food. Like that's just what she wants. So use that money to do that. So he went to target and was like,

Laura (15:21.806)

Ha ha ha.

Crystal she/her (15:32.132)

Hey, I'm not trying to like set me a text during session. Like, Hey, I'm not trying to put this on you. I just want to make sure that this is like within, you know, does this look okay to you? Are you thinking this or more of a hooded robe or an oversized sweatshirt kind of thing? And I was like, Oh no, these are both great choices. Either one is great. He knows her style. He knows what, you know, level of softness she looks for and stuff. And so those kinds of things he has.

really, he's really open to engaging, to trying to figure out like how specifically to do that without, he'll say a lot of times, I was gonna ask you this, like he'll do after the fact. I was gonna ask you this and then realized I could just Google it. And I was like, I love you for that, that's great. So within that, there has been a lot of me going, I'm really resentful for you about this, but it's because, oh, he'll say, he'll say like with the robe stuff, I can't believe you did this for 10 years without my involvement.

Laura (16:11.347)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (16:27.664)

Like I can't believe you did this for 10 years on your own. Like that must've been really hard. He is in individual therapy to kind of like unpack that stuff. And it's not necessarily to unpack like his wife's mental load. He's in therapy for like being self-aware so that I don't have to teach him that, right? Like we're paying somebody else, a professional, to teach him what it's like to be self-aware. And I think sometimes,

Laura (16:31.357)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (16:48.555)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (16:55.204)

And he's, you know, he learns so much. And I think sometimes that is also the mental load that wives and cis-het partnerships, or even in queer partnerships, that one partner is just less emotionally aware because that wasn't what was taught in their household. And so the other partner is like that curiosity, that noticing that we're doing that workshop with Rose Hackman on coming up in a couple of weeks. That's completely absent. And one partner is in charge of doing that. So therapy has taught him how to do that.

Right? To be aware of things that I am not naturally aware of. I have been conditioned to be aware of. And it's the education that he does through reading. You know, I'll read a book. And I'm like, hey, I think this really helps. Would really help you to understand what this is like for me. And he'll go, OK, great. I'm on it. And I'll tell him, you don't even have to read the book. Here's a podcast about that book that was great. And I think gets the point across. Can we talk about it later? And he's open to that.

Laura (17:47.485)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (17:52.528)

So I think, especially in these situations where the husband is kind of like this good guy who's open to learning, take advantage of that. Like, "hey I don't want you to go to therapy because I think there's something wrong with you. I'm wondering if even couples therapy might be helpful for us to kind of navigate this, you know, navigate this weird spot because I don't know what to do with it either. And I don't want to take it out on you. And I don't want to seem ungrateful because I am grateful. And I have all this built up resentment that I don't know what to do with."

Laura (17:52.996)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (18:23.35)

Yeah, I think you make a really good point that...

I want to say even going to couples counseling still sometimes is about like being able to communicate better. And that is the expectation is still that it's not your type of therapy and not the kind of therapy that is informed on systemic issues and things like that. I think it runs the risk of teaching you how to communicate interpersonally.

Crystal she/her (18:37.095)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (18:48.369)

Right.

Laura (18:57.018)

overshadowing the fact that a lot of men are not encouraged to learn on their own when it comes to things that aren't capitalism.

Crystal she/her (18:58.425)

Mmm.

Crystal she/her (19:03.147)

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Crystal she/her (19:08.164)

Yeah, yeah, no, 100%. I mean, because if we're honest, therapy is driven by capitalism, right? Like there was a whole movement to decolonialize therapy and coming from a social work background, that was one thing I had to wrestle with, but it's very much, I mean, that's very much, it's exactly what you're saying. It's also the thing of, let's get you in here, let's like find out what your goals are and then we're gonna use, you know,

Gottman or whatever evidence-based practice to get your goals met and get you out of here. So it's also the thing of like when we saw a couples therapist last year, um, I, I got to, I found our therapist, I've got to look him up and read you his profile because I picked him for his profile, like bio description. And this is what it said. This is the kind of thing that I look for when I look for a couples therapist. Um,

Laura (19:37.186)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (19:41.599)

Mmmm

Crystal she/her (20:04.28)

His name is Steve. So shout out to Steve. Um, we aren't seeing him anymore, but he was amazing. Um, okay. So under his profile, um, his listings are LGBTQIA two spirit plus queer partnerships, racial trauma and minority stress, identity and empowerment, life transitions, relationship and intimacy. Um, CNM, which stands for consensual non-monogamy and poly partnerships, feminist masculinity, um, career transitions and work life balance and systemic oppression.

Um, that's just his like.

Laura (20:35.47)

How'd you find that person? Where'd he come from?

Crystal she/her (20:38.428)

That's a really good question. I mean, he's with Kindman and Co. They are also hiring right now, if you're a therapist listening to this, and they do supervision for associates because he's an associate, Steve is. But what did I look, you know what? I probably Googled queer therapy, or like queer therapy near me, or queer couples therapy, is probably what I Googled. They're not located close to us. Like we had to drive, you know, 45 minutes to an hour to get there.

Uh, once every two weeks, I think we were going anyway. Um, but throw in there couples, therapy, systemic oppression, uh, or couples, therapist, systemic oppression, couples, therapist, feminist masculinity is the best, it didn't say it said something similar, but it didn't say that last year. Um, that feminist masculinity piece is real specific. You know what I mean? Like you're not going to get somebody who's just looking to meet your goals, help you communicate or get your goals. Let's improve communication and maybe make them a list and then get you out the door.

Laura (21:28.942)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (21:38.372)

Like this is somebody that I'm, I was able to go into and say, Hey, I'm in the, you know, I'm knee deep in fair play and domestic labor and domestic equity right now. So that's the lens we're coming from. And he educated himself on that. So that when we came in, he was like, cool, you know, so tell me about this, which was great.

Laura (21:49.774)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (21:58.974)

Yeah, I think that's awesome. That's a great way to go. I feel like Googling queer therapy, even if your partnership is Cis het, is great because like, isn't, I mean, at least my idea is that we should all be queering, and I think you agree. We should all be like queering our relationships regardless of that word. Like I think that word is very great to embrace. And I like it because it's like, okay, this person.

Crystal she/her (22:18.617)

I do.

Laura (22:29.042)

has an awareness of something outside of the bounds of rigid norms. They're informed.

Crystal she/her (22:32.936)

Yes, very much, very much like, yes. It, and it has an informed practice that specifically go against those rigid norms and continues to do education of themselves to, uh, be able to continue that education for themselves. They didn't take a course and then go, cool, we're done. Like, cool. I got it. I, I'm going to provide therapy now. Right. Um, but yeah, I think.

Laura (22:51.01)

Yeah.

Laura (22:55.97)

There's also something to be said, I think there's something to be said about, I love learning about like queerness, the more I learn about queerness and Dr. Han Ren talks about like Poly, you know, we love Angela Chen who wrote ACE, like the more I learn about a variety of different kinds of relationships and talk to other people, the more honed in I get.

on the connection between systemic issues and how they show up in my life. So just like the more perspectives that exist, the more informed someone is on that, I almost feel like they're, I do feel like you are better equipped to pinpoint the issues.

Crystal she/her (23:28.593)

Hmm

Crystal she/her (23:40.94)

Oh yeah, because you've got a laser sharp focus then on a shared understanding of what, you've got a shared worldview and an understanding of, here, you know what, here's what it is. For me as an neurodivergent person, it's the perspective, the first line of his bio, and listen, Steve Wilson, I don't mean to like hype you up or you know, blow up your ego, but you deserve it. The first...

Laura (23:51.181)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (24:08.004)

sentence of his bio is I'm here to help you embrace your authenticity and find liberation from stories, patterns, habits, and ways of being that don't fit who you want to be. And so as a neurodivergent person, yeah, like I, what I want is to get help from spaces that are like, cool is something not working for you bitching cause it's all made up. That sounds great. Like let's, let's talk about and to be able to sit with my partner and have discussions,

Laura (24:18.178)

Amazing.

Laura (24:27.882)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (24:37.904)

toward like, like our conversations are always safe. But to be in a space where I know I'm gonna have the safety to be understood and to have, you know, Steve go, okay, I feel like Ben you missed that or didn't hear her or Crystal, do you hear what he's saying? What is it? Because we used PACT which I've talked about before. PACT is the modality that Steve used for us in a couple of sessions. Crystal, what do you notice about his body language? Ben, when you were talking about that, what did you notice Crystal's hands do?

What kind of like, what did you feel coming from her while you were talking about that? That's noticing. That's being curious. That's teaching us how to do those things in real time while we're sitting next to each other. And I don't have the opportunity because I usually am the one to go, no, I'm done talking about this. I'm all done. I'm going to shut myself and hide in the bathroom. You know, like it's a safe place to do that. So I think it's okay. And, and again,

Laura (25:07.862)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (25:30.245)

Yeah.

Crystal she/her (25:36.46)

I think it's more helpful to use that guilt to redirect it and go, you know what? I'm feeling guilty and resentful. And I know that that's from, it's kind of like the concept we've talked about before about like fighting patriarchy or like seeing, noticing all of these inequities in your home and then sitting down for dinner with the person who represents patriarchy in front of you. And being like, I'm so pissed at you. Like using that opportunity to go, can we have a

Laura (25:58.967)

Mm. Yeah.

Crystal she/her (26:06.076)

deeper conversation about this that is a protected hour that's set aside so that we can connect on this. Cause I think that you think it's important. I think, I think it's important. And I think we could really do something super powerful with this and be more like intimately connected. I'm not talking about sex. Like it, that is, it has nothing to do with the amount of times you have sex. Cause I know that like, especially coming from an evangelical background, I feel like that's also some hesitation for

Laura (26:24.462)

Ha ha

Crystal she/her (26:33.548)

some women insist have partnerships where it's like, well, if we go to couples therapy, I feel like the assumption is gonna be they're gonna just gonna tell me I need to have sex more. Nope, go to a queer therapist. They will absolutely not tell you. Chances are, I shouldn't say they won't. Chances are they're not gonna tell you that.

Laura (26:44.354)

There you go.

Laura (26:49.19)

Yeah. Well, okay. So you bring up a really important thing to mention is...

The reading of the books and the understanding of the theory and the big picture, I have told you this and I think that I want to talk to the audience directly.

Over all of the research that I have done in the last year and a half of writing this book that I am writing and all of the interviews and reading through all of these, I have hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of responses from surveys that I have put out. A recurring theme is exactly what you just said, Crystal. I don't want to be reductive because this is an issue that shows up everywhere.

Crystal she/her (27:29.32)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (27:38.486)

But over and over, I see cis-het partnerships, very many white ones, where, and again, this is like, I'm reducing it down to the finest thing here. Please, like, take this with good intent, okay? When women...

Crystal she/her (27:45.864)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (28:01.146)

learn about what is going on in the world. And a lot of women in 2020, especially after, I gotta back this up. I completely back this up.

Crystal she/her (28:16.554)

I am waiting with bated breath to find, I still don't know what you're gonna say. I'm so excited.

Laura (28:20.362)

Okay, all right, backing this up. Okay.

of all of the surveys that I have done in the last year and a half of researching this book, hundreds of answers on surveys, a bunch of interviews and emails and sorting through everything, I have found a theme. And the theme is that over the last four years, mostly since 2020, when we all went into lockdown, when there were protests in response to...

Breonna Taylor's death and George Floyd, things like that. People picked up books, they shifted a focus and there was a moment in time where it was like, oh, change, like change is coming. And it felt really like there was an opportunity and then it kind of went away. It was not taken, I should say. But there was all of this movement that happened.

Crystal she/her (29:09.02)

Hmm.

Crystal she/her (29:16.092)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (29:24.002)

and people who got on TikTok and people who got on Instagram and started learning learned more and more and more and there was this progress that happened and a lot of women have, I have found in the responses and everything I've found there was a break. A lot of women kept going and a lot of men thought what the fuck is your deal? What were you on about? Like, this is cute.

Crystal she/her (29:41.581)

Mm-hmm

Crystal she/her (29:48.2)

Are you okay? Yeah.

Laura (29:51.23)

You have joined a book club. You are talking to your friends. Bunch of white women like myself reading bell hooks for the first time. And like there was this social shift, like a crack that happened. And I think it split households because it was like, okay, now we see right in our face, one of us is doing more domestic labor. One of us had to quit their job.

Crystal she/her (29:54.32)

you

Crystal she/her (30:05.054)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (30:11.327)

Mmmm

Crystal she/her (30:14.434)

Oh, fuck.

Laura (30:20.454)

One of us is drowning and you, the other person, are the amount of privilege that you get to keep working your job and keep going while I am drowning. I cannot deny it any longer and now I have perspective and I need to keep knowing this. And the other person is like, what?

Crystal she/her (30:43.22)

Mmm. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, keep going. Keep going. Keep going

Laura (30:44.674)

And yeah, that's all I have. And that is a like, it is a consistent theme that the systemic issues were right in our face, just like a flash of time. And some people have gone back to what it was before that feels safe, or they are in this like flux space, whatever, whatever happened from there. I think that was a very widespread experience. And even if you didn't feel it like acutely, or that's not

Crystal she/her (30:53.327)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (30:58.529)

Uh, mm. Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (31:10.704)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (31:14.254)

totally what happened, there was a social shift. I think we're in the middle of one now too. It feels like something's changing.

Crystal she/her (31:17.537)

Yes. Yeah.

Yes, 100%. And I think that that's so interesting that you should say that because I had one of mine and Ben's mutual friends who we've known for years and love absolutely dearly and who has been diagnosed ADHD since he was a kid. And when I was like, I have an ADHD diagnosis, he was like, duh, duh. Sent me an article the other day written, excuse me, it was written by the New York Times.

Laura (31:42.848)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (31:51.664)

What kills me is always the headlines that are like, did the COVID pandemic contribute to the, you know, whatever, the COVID pandemic contribute to the like, huge boom in ADA diagnoses in women? And it was like, he sent me the article and the article was great, it was good. And also for me was like, yeah. And so I text messaged, Jake is his name, I text messaged Jake back and I was like, yeah, motherfucker.

the COVID broke women's brains. And we already were trying we were trying to compensate too hard that our brains were like, a bitch, we're done. I'm so sorry. Like, we could not compensate anymore. So if you add that level of neurodivergence to, oh my god, that feeling of must be nice for you to go to work, and not have to see anybody all day except for grown ups. Like to have that validated with as it watch it like

Laura (32:32.982)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (32:43.191)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (32:50.256)

watching a systemic, sorry, watching a systemic downfall of that and watching it come up and be right, like you said, right in front of our faces. In cis-het partnerships, men have two choices, right? Men have two choices to either become, I mean, on a scale, to become defensive or to lean in to learn, right? I am...

Laura (33:13.952)

Mm-hmm. Not be fucking taught every step of the way though, because that's not open to learning.

Crystal she/her (33:19.064)

Right, right. No, that's it, that's, okay, here's the thing. When, if you went to school, which all of us did, you got grades and were allowed to pass certain classes in high school, in junior high and high school and college and beyond, that responsibility is up to you. No one is gonna go, well, I'll just, I mean, you could cheat your way through and have someone else do your paper.

Domestic life is the same thing. It's not fair for me to go, well, just give me your fucking paper, I'll do it, right? Or like, I don't wanna hurt your feelings, so I'm gonna just do quietly your part of the paper. It's like, no, hey, this is really important to me because this is, me having to remind you of this is directly connected to how connected I am to you.

Laura (33:49.602)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (34:11.906)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (34:13.06)

And over a long period of time, that has a contribution to whether or not I would still like to be long-term partnered to you. This is how important it is. And you're right, that break is like, well, I can't unsee, we can't unsee it.

Laura (34:25.79)

No, no. And I think for me, one of the pieces of awareness, like my personal journey is like, pre-pandemic, we were working on domestic labor. Like we had already been dealing with that because I had a baby. I had my second kid in the midst of a horrible, disastrous year. And

Crystal she/her (34:42.682)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (34:52.918)

I had my second kid, I was laid off, I had to get a new job, and I went back to full time as a parent of two in a job. I was just, it was bad. I was like, I'm not going to survive this. I will not survive this without help, without figuring out how to do this. So we were on our path with that already. Then throughout the pandemic, we're working on this division of labor, cool, cool. And then there was still the piece of like...

Crystal she/her (35:05.252)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Laura (35:22.434)

I start learning all of these things, then there's the emotional load piece. I totally and completely relate to this. It wasn't until both of us got on board fully with learning about these things, and I mean all of it. I mean the redlining. I mean education policy.

Crystal she/her (35:38.544)

Yeah, right.

Oh, right, right. Systemic racism, systemic, yeah, systemic racism within yeah, cities and education and capitalism and hierarchy. Yeah, all of it.

Laura (35:50.914)

Yep. And it was like, there were like moments along the way. I mean, my own mental, getting a diagnosis for my ADHD, my bipolar too, huge turning point for us, for me. But that, the reason that happened, I was just telling you before we got on the call, was because of a lack of support at work, not having a routine, the whole world shutting down and prioritizing.

Crystal she/her (35:55.714)

Ahem.

Laura (36:20.054)

Um, earning over connection, like all of those things hit me, all of them contributed to this. And so we both need to commit. And I, from everybody that I've talked to, I don't, I like, this is probably my hottest take ever. If you aren't going to learn about that, you're either accepting.

a level of disconnection that's okay with you and that's fair. That's fair. But it's going to be there. It's going to be there.

Crystal she/her (36:50.44)

Yes. Mm-hmm. That is a choice. Yeah. Right. And I think, and I, here's the thing. I don't think that is, I like that you said it out loud and in a concise way because it is a thing of, and Ben and I always say together, like, some things you can't unsee, bro. Like, like, it's, you, once you see the systemic racism in the page, like, my kids will come to me with a simple question on like,

Okay, so in the Jim Crow era and they're like, Mom, I just asked if we could get Lunchables and I'm like, there's well, no, and there's a reason for that. So sit down. Like, right. Like it's a very specific way that I live my life. And so, you know, the, a couple of days ago, I, and it's very, here's the other thing coming from an evangelical Christian background, when this reader, when this reader and her partner left that, left that church.

Laura (37:21.974)

Right?

Laura (37:33.41)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (37:45.304)

and left that belief system, you become a different version of yourself. You have to, right? You, I have been three or four very distinct versions of myself over the course of 20 years, because we started dating in 2004. Uh, with that, like that I have been and a couple of days ago I went to him and I said, Hey, are you sure you're good with this? Like, are you sure you like this version of me? Because this version is very, very different than

A version I was even five years ago. And because he does his own internal work and sees me for who I am, like because of his work, not because I chose well, not because you know, all of those tropes, it's like, no, he was like, yeah, I, this is who I've always known you to be, this is just a more clarified version of that person. This is not news to me. This is not new to me.

Laura (38:27.966)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (38:41.614)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (38:44.76)

I can just see you now physically. Do you know what I mean?

Laura (38:47.966)

I think, yeah, and like to bring it back to what the person was writing is like, okay, I still feel like something is missing here or like maybe I'm just not grateful. And from where I stand, and again, like all this research and interviews and surveys and things, it's not being grateful or not. And it's not, is this enough change or not? Because there's never going to be a yes or a no or a...

Crystal she/her (39:10.545)

No.

Laura (39:17.174)

you're not grateful. I think it's that piece of like, maybe we can assume, maybe we can project that he's not taking on the full understanding in the same way of why this matters and how the commitment to ongoing, like it has to be ongoing. So there's never going to be, yes, there's never going to be a point where you're both like, oh, we have...

Crystal she/her (39:34.956)

Mmm.

Crystal she/her (39:38.8)

Yeah, or the importance of that to your partnership. Yeah.

Laura (39:46.494)

Okay, we're fixed. Like we're, now we've got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Crystal she/her (39:47.564)

We've arrived. Yes. 100%. I think that yeah, that's a great point. That's a really great point.

Laura (39:55.762)

Yeah, it's bigger. It's bigger than the, well, now we have an equal partnership. We have an equal partnership now. It's like we've gained a better understanding of one another. We have stronger communication. We are committed to collaborating, but it's not like we achieved an equal partnership.

Crystal she/her (40:11.911)

Right.

Crystal she/her (40:16.424)

Right. And to be fair, I don't know that I don't know that I don't know that exists. Is that my hottest take ever? Like, because there are some, there are some seasons where it is not an equal partnership because it can't be. Right. Like there are some seasons where, you know, I mean, we're using the persist app right now to look at our divided hours, his hours this week.

Laura (40:23.56)

Maybe.

Laura (40:30.615)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (40:39.344)

and for the next couple of weeks are much more heavy mental load wise and time bound task wise. Like he's much more restricted, but I have a heavier emotional load because I can't take on a more right now. My mental health cannot handle a heavier mental load or time bound tasks. So I've got shit I need. I have to get done in this season. So it's not equal in that way, but it's the openness that both of us have to learning and being available.

Laura (40:46.392)

Mm.

Laura (40:57.954)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (41:06.94)

for it to change and open for it to change. And I think, I think I'm assuming that most of the listeners that we have who have partners that are open to like division of labor and fair play, like what I would challenge you is like, believe in their buy-in enough and trust their buy-in enough to lean into that and ask them if they would go a little bit deeper with you so that you can both have a better understanding.

Of what's of what's going on and how you can be closer. Because I think that's actually what we're asking. And that's why it feels so weird to ask. And it feels easier to be like, I like feeling guilty, just feels more familiar and more comfortable. You don't have to feel guilty for all the work that he's doing. You are grateful. He's grateful for you. You know, like, I, I just feel like, like you said, it's bigger than that. We have to change the perspective on how to approach it.

Laura (42:05.586)

Yeah. Something I was trying to find the exact quote in All About Love, Bell Hooks says a couple of things about spiritual growth. And one, like, you can interpret her definitions of love however you want, but one of the, like, her framework for love is an action, it's a nurturing of self and other, and it's learning. It's growth.

Crystal she/her (42:14.849)

Mm.

Laura (42:35.198)

literal so if you aren't going to love yourself or someone else enough to grow with them, is that love?

Crystal she/her (42:35.303)

Mm-hmm.

Crystal she/her (42:41.058)

Mmm, god damn it.

Laura (42:43.19)

Sorry.

Crystal she/her (42:46.172)

Four people just turned off this podcast. A Thawee, Thawee not Thawee. Yeah, and I do think that that, I mean, here's the deal. And you and I talked about this a couple of months ago. You know, there's a, I feel like everybody reaches a point in their thirties, maybe, where they go, why am I partnered? Like, why four, why four did I choose this? Right? And.

Laura (42:48.63)

Sorry, really sorry about that.

Laura (43:11.407)

It's a good question. Good question.

Crystal she/her (43:18.914)

And I think if you are not partnered with someone who is also interested in learning what you have to learn or what you're interested in learning because that's how we grow through listening and learning, then I think it's okay to extend that invitation and then do what you will with that response. Like again, mm-hmm.

Laura (43:38.59)

And you know us, do what we very, very sincerely mean, do what you will. Like no judgment, you shouldn't, don't feel bad or guilty for doing what you need to do and how you need to do it.

Crystal she/her (43:44.564)

Truly.

Crystal she/her (43:52.512)

Right. And to be clear, the reason Ben went into therapy was because I was in my own individual therapy and my sweet, sweet therapist said to me, it sounds like you've taken him as far as you can go. Right? Like.

Laura (44:04.94)

Yeah, is that your work or his work?

Crystal she/her (44:07.116)

Right. And she was like, yeah, it sounds like he has benefited as much as he can from your work with me. And it sounds like it's time for him to do his own work with his own therapist. And so I said, hey, I think I've taken you as far as we can go. Would you mind finding a therapist? And he was like, yeah, that's I think that's a great idea. Because we got to a point where he was like, could you ask Amanda or should we talk to Amanda about this? And I was like, I'm not bothering Amanda with any more of your problems. No, I'm just kidding. I was like, yeah.

Laura (44:18.391)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (44:25.632)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (44:34.53)

Ha ha ha.

Crystal she/her (44:36.592)

Let's find your own, you know, and that's okay.

Laura (44:40.27)

There are lots of books available at the library and from the Libby app, and you can get all of those in podcasts and things like you don't have to see a therapist. You can start there.

Crystal she/her (44:50.668)

No, yeah. Oh, absolutely. You don't have to do that growth with a therapist only. That is not exclusive to therapy. Yeah, we have actually, as of today, we have lists, our lists from bookshop.org with our book recommendations. So that's up on the website now under relationship tools. So you're so welcome. It's the joy of my life to put together a really well-curated podcast website.

Laura (44:55.694)

Mm-hmm.

Laura (45:09.826)

Thank you, Crystal. Thanks for doing that.

Laura (45:19.84)

I love it.

Crystal she/her (45:20.136)

That's all I've ever wanted.

Laura (45:22.59)

Well, thank you for whoever wrote that in. That was awesome. Send us all your stuff. We love you.

Crystal she/her (45:30.968)

Thank you guys so much for writing in. As always, you can DM us, you can leave us a voice note, you can email us. Thank you so much for listening and contributing to the podcast. We love you guys. Bye.

Laura (46:08.098)

Bye.